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Posted By: George Little Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 12:02 AM
I just had an electrician ask me if he could install #14 cu. conductors for a pool motor and I said yes but he would need a #12 cu. EGC. Is everyone on this forum in agreement? (ha ha) I know the rules that say the GEC doesn't have to be larger than the circuit conductor (250.122(A)) but there apearently isn't any rule that would let us run less than a #12 cu. GEC for a pool motor. Check 680.21(A).
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 12:58 AM
680.21 requires a equipment grounding conductor not smaller than #12 AWG for pool motors.

680.3 states that methods modified by this article be used...

2005 NEC 680.21 added that the EGC has to be "insulated" except as covered by this section...

I agree that a #12 EGC minimum must be used...

shortcircuit
Posted By: electcontrctr Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 01:42 AM
Hello,
I noticed that you are asking about using #14 wire on a pump motor. I dont see any great benefit/savings using #14 for this particular application (unless you are doing a lot of them) but...since you seem to be splitting hairs...why would you mention #14 CU? Do you ever see #14 AL in a raceway?

Just curious

Brad
Posted By: George Little Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 02:57 AM
I guess I didn't have to specify cu wire because I don't think they make alum. wire in that gauge. Don't forget, we have a lot of very exacting people on this board so you have to choose your words carefully. And, I agree, there's not much of a savings in using #14 wire for the branch wiring and #12 for the EGC. That's what I told the contractor. If he ends up using #14 with a #12 EGC, I can't quote a violation.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 02:59 AM
#12 cu is the smallest EGC you can use anywhere in a pool as far as I know. In fact I have some left over SJTW wet niche lamp cord that is 14ga with a 12ga ground. I'm not sure what I am going to do with it but they whacked about 60-80' of a 100' cord for 3 lights and it was in the dumpster.
It just looked too good to throw away.
(I wasn't working there, just visiting my favorite builder)
Posted By: iwire Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 10:47 AM
Quote
Don't forget, we have a lot of very exacting people on this board so you have to choose your words carefully.

No truer words have been spoken. [Linked Image]

I agree with shortcircuits reasoning.

Look at that, so far we are all in agreement. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: harold endean Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 11:28 AM
Greg,

What if the wet niche cord had # 16 ga ground wire and the fixture was UL listed and would you have to accept it?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 06:35 PM
I wouldn't accept it. Me the EC and U/L would have to go round and round.
There may be some places where I would accept a U/L stamp that appeared to be a code violation but it would not be in an underwater light.
My first guess would be this was some Chicom knockoff of a U/L product, complete with counterfeit listing
Posted By: caselec Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/16/05 08:03 PM
Greg

What code would you cite to require a #12 EGC in the cord?

You are only required to install a #12 or larger EGC to the junction box where the cord terminates. The EGC in the cord must not be smaller than the supply conductors and not smaller than #16. See 680.23(B)(3)

I have never seen a wet niche fixture cord that has a #12 EGC.

Curt


[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 04-16-2005).]
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/17/05 07:19 PM
"(3) Equipment Grounding Provisions for Cords. Wetniche luminaires (lighting fixtures) that are supplied by a flexible cord or cable shall have all exposed non–currentcarrying metal parts grounded by an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor that is an integral part of the cord or cable. This grounding conductor shall be connected to a grounding terminal in the supply junction box, transformer enclosure, or other enclosure. The grounding
conductor shall not be smaller than the supply conductors and not smaller than 16 AWG.

680.23(B)(3)
this section spells it out pretty good [Linked Image].
Posted By: Zapped Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/18/05 01:12 AM
Just replaced four wet niche lights in a pool that was being resurfaced. The original installation included aluminum niches that were grounded in addition to the #12 ground in the niche cable. We copied the installation, which included a #8 ground wire bonded to the aluminum niches AND the ground within the cable. Overkill, perhaps, but a good idea IMHO.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/20/05 02:39 AM
Yup I was wrong. I have found some cables with 14ga all around. I do have some with 14/14/12 ground tho. I think they are Pentair Amerlight cords.
Posted By: George Little Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/20/05 02:50 AM
Greg- Your a Class Act. It takes a classy guy to admit they are wrong. I have learned that this forum is monitored by a lot of sharp code guys. I too have been found in error on occasions on this forum. I guess that's how we learn. Between the IAEI and this forum I keep pretty muchnup to date [Linked Image]
Posted By: harold endean Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/23/05 11:32 AM
Greg,

You are a classy guy, I've known it for years. I too feel that when you can admit that you made a mistake, It makes a bigger person out of us. I have told a few contractors, that I made a mistake. You'll feel better about it. I always tell the contractors out there that I inspect, "If you have a problem with my call, talk to me. I might have made a mistake. Let's talk it out." We usually come to an agreement on how the code section should be enforced.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Conductor size for pool motor. - 04/23/05 04:03 PM
Anyone who is not willing to learn by their mistakes are doomed to make more mistakes.
Inspectors, more than anyone, have to be willing to admit when they get one wrong and learn by it. This is the only way we can remain credible.
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