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Posted By: homersimpson GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/21/05 08:07 PM
I was wondering if anyone has heard of people using GFI outlets mounted near the panel to supply circuits requiring a GFI breaker. I would like to know if this is a common practice among penny pinching hacks, or just urban legend.
Posted By: Active 1 Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/21/05 08:55 PM
I seen several GFI's mounted below the panel for this. Many locals have a rule the GFI rec can only be load sided for that room.

A number of homes built when the GFI's first came out had 1 working everything, kitchen, baths, garage, basement, and garage. They pipe and pulled them all together.

Tom
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/21/05 09:24 PM
What circuits require a GFCI breaker? I can think of one that requires a GFCI receptacle, but can't think of any that require a GFCI breaker.
Don
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/21/05 09:34 PM
The 'type' of GFI protection installed is a 'design' issue, not a NEC issue.
GFI can be the device (GFI Recept), a GFI CB, or a 'faceless' GFI.

John
Well if you'll allow me to digress from the GFCI issue, the code requires Ground Fault protection for Fixed Outdoor Electric Deicing and Snow Melting that is seen as a possible location for a GFCI receptacle. This should be a circuit that is protected by a breaker and can not be substituted by a a receptacle. In fact the breaker is the only device available for this type of installation. The GFPE has a trip level od 30-50 ma as I recall and the GFCI has a trip level of 4-6ma.
Posted By: Roger Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/21/05 10:38 PM
I agree with Don, I know of requirements (5 to be exact) for a GFCI receptacle, but not for full circuit protection.

This may not be what Don is refering to.

Roger
Posted By: HLCbuild Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/21/05 11:28 PM
Once again, I'm in the '99 NEC but the requirements here are to be GFCI protected. It doesn't specify as to how to do this. Either a breaker or a receptacle. I prefer to use GFCI receptacles so my customers don't have to wander to the basement or garage to reset a GFCI breaker that trips when they are ready to dry their hair having just stepped out of the shower. That said, it is the choice of the designer.
Posted By: iwire Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/22/05 12:26 AM
If you provide GFI protection for the small appliance branch circuits with a GFCI receptacle at the panel you would have a violation. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: CTwireman Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/22/05 12:50 AM
Quote
If you provide GFI protection for the small appliance branch circuits with a GFCI receptacle at the panel you would have a violation.
Bob


Unless you used dead front GFCIs. Why anyone would do this is unknown to me. I have never seen it.

Peter D.
Posted By: iwire Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/22/05 01:07 AM
Peter

by Pete;
Quote
Unless you used dead front GFCIs.

By me;
Quote
If you provide GFI protection for the small appliance branch circuits with a GFCI receptacle at the panel you would have a violation.
Bob


It's all in the details. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Quote
Why anyone would do this is unknown to me.

It is a solution if you wanted GFI protection from a fuse or obsolete CB panel.

Why not use a GFCI receptacle at the point of use?

Have you tried to install a GFCI receptacle in an old box? [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: gfretwell Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/22/05 04:28 AM
I know it is a tiny bit off topic but an AFCI <bedroom> receptacle is required to next to the panel. The intent was exactly what Bob is talking about. Retrofitting old panels.
In the case of GFCIs it is good design to have the receptacle in the room it controls but I am not sure where it is "code". Don't you ever see back to back bathrooms with counter receptacles fed from the GFCI in one of them?
Posted By: CTwireman Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/22/05 04:00 PM
Bob,

Yup, the devil is in the details. I saw that after I posted. I was thinking that would be the only way to make it code compliant while feeding bath or kitchen circuits.

Yeah, I have tried to put GFCI's in small, overcrowded boxes. Just the other day, as a matter of fact. I use the "push and pray" method myself. [Linked Image]

I think most people in this area just use a GFCI circuit breaker if they want to add GFCI protection. As for old obsolete circuit breaker panels, I'm sure you know there are still supply houses in our area that carry original stock for them. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Posted By: homersimpson Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/22/05 06:40 PM
Can anyone foresee people using AFCI receptacles mounted near the panel to supply circuits requiring AFCI breakers? Other then some retrofits, I can’t see why anyone would use an AFCI receptacle. This is probably why there are no AFCI receptacles on the market (that I know of).
Posted By: hurk27 Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/24/05 06:10 AM
For old shallow gem box's we use a wire-mold box extension. While it does stick out a little it looks better than regular box extension. As far as the AFCI receptacles go, the 2005 addresses this and they should be available by 2008? [Linked Image]
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: GFI outlet in place of GFI breaker? - 03/27/05 01:11 AM
During an inspection a couple of weeks ago, I was reading the label on the Hydromassage motor and it specifically said "protect with a GFCI protected circuit"

That was the first (and last one) I saw that said that. The contractor pointed that out to me.
chistmas plugs up high in soffits are another good example of remote gfci's.
then you can bring your load to where ever the switch is....of course you better keep that neutral seperate (if in multi-gang box)
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