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Posted By: John C Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/15/05 02:18 AM
I used romex in the auditorium of a movie theatre, specifically for the class 2 aisle lighting circuits. Again, this is for a 12 volt circuit. (actually it is 112 different 12 volt circuits in 14 auditoriums). Under 1999 NEC article 518-4(a) exception (c) I can do this, I think. Also I think 336-5 (4) gives me some ammo as well.

Building department objected at first, but then said they'd go along with it if Engineer wrote a letter saying it was "OK". So-the engineer writes a letter, basically saying it is "OK" with him if the building department is "OK" with it. So, the building department responds that the electrical engineer has too many strings attached. They want him to re-word the letter he doesn't want to re-word it. This could be very ugly. Finish is rapidly going up over walls....

I can run speaker wire, t-stat cable, low voltage lighting control, fire alarm cable, screen-motor LV control wire. All this is allowed per 518-4 (a) under exceptions. If I had used a #12 speaker wire cable; the building department would not have even blinked. Oh, and these guys are not electrical inspectors; they are general inspectors.

any input would be 'preciated.

thanks,
John

what do you-all think?
thanks,
John
NM cable is not acceptable for a Class 2 circuit per 725.52.
Posted By: e57 Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/15/05 04:47 AM
John, you may be ready to get the big "Do over" there.

I cant see where you might be able to get away from it here.

The part of 336-5(4) that mentions 518 refers to 518-4(B)
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(b) Nonrated Construction. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable, Type AC cable, electrical nonmetallic tubing, and rigid nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted to be installed in those buildings or portions thereof that are not required to be of fire-rated construction by the applicable building code.
FPN: Fire-rated construction is the fire-resistive classification used in building codes.
Ya know for other areas of the building that don't require the same fire rating. If you could some how change the fire rating of the auditorium....

Dare I say it, feel lucky they are even giving you a chance to make an arguement about it. Many of the inspectors I deal with wouldn't be so accomadating.
Posted By: iwire Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/15/05 09:09 AM
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NM cable is not acceptable for a Class 2 circuit per 725.52.

Geoge I am not seeing that, can you elaborate?

Bob
Posted By: e57 Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/15/05 10:58 AM
Bob, I think it goes from 725.52, which refers to 725.71

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725-71. Listing and Marking of Class 2, Class 3, and Type PLTC Cables
Class 2, Class 3, and Type PLTC cables installed as wiring within buildings shall be listed as being resistant to the spread of fire and other criteria in accordance with (a) through (g) and shall be marked in accordance with (h).

Another killer for the romex install is 411 which goes back to chapter 3, and back in the circle again.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 03-15-2005).]
Thanks e57, you are correct with your answer to Bob. I was reading a bunch of stuff in 725 and I grabbed only part of what I was reading and posted it [Linked Image]
Posted By: Gregtaylor Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 01:25 AM
I think the Building Dept. sees a way to back out of their original compromise and I hate to say it but I think they should.
518 covers places of assembly but 520 more specifically covers Audience areas and there is just no leeway for NM in any application in these areas.
Hi,
what do you use to wire a bank, school, docs office or mall out there?

regards

greg
Posted By: iwire Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 01:42 AM
George and e57 we can either use a chapter 3 wiring method for class 2 and 3 circuits or we can use class 2 or 3 cables as listed in 725-71.

Check out 725.52(A)

2002 NEC

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725.52 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of the Class 2 or Class 3 Power Source.

Class 2 and Class 3 circuits on the load side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed using wiring methods and materials in accordance with either 725.52(A) or (B).

(A) Class 1 Wiring Methods and Materials. Installation shall be in accordance with 725.25.

Exception No. 1: The derating factors that are given in 310.15(B)(2)(a) shall not apply.

Exception No. 2: Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall be permitted to be reclassified and installed as Class 1 circuits if the Class 2 and Class 3 markings required in 725.42 are eliminated and the entire circuit is installed using the wiring methods and materials in accordance with Part II, Class 1 circuits. Class 2 and Class 3 circuits reclassified and installed as Class 1 circuits shall not be classified as Class 2 or Class 3 circuits, regardless of the continued connection to a Class 2 or Class 3 power source.

Here is 725.25 which 725.52(A) referenced.

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725.25 Class 1 Circuit Wiring Methods.

Installations of Class 1 circuits shall be in accordance with Article 300 and the other appropriate articles in Chapter 3.

Exception No. 1: The provisions of 725.26 through 725.28 shall be permitted to apply in installations of Class 1 circuits.

Exception No. 2: Methods permitted or required by other articles of this Code shall apply to installations of Class 1 circuits.

Class 2 and 3 circuits can be wired with any method listed in Chapter 3 NM, MC, EMT, etc.

Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-15-2005).]
Hi,
iwire- you said: "Class 2 and 3 circuits can be wired with any method listed in Chapter 3 NM, MC, EMT, etc."

are you sure about that?

i dont think so.

-regards

greg
Posted By: iwire Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 02:02 AM
By the way I agree with Gregtaylor that article 520 covers the auditorium of a movie theater and 520.5(A) prohibits NM for general fixed use lighting and power but take a look at the exception.

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520.5(A)Exception: Fixed wiring methods shall be as provided in Article 640 for audio signal processing, amplification, and reproduction equipment, in Article 800 for communication circuits, in Article 725 for Class 2 and Class 3 remote-control and signaling circuits, and in Article 760 for fire alarm circuits.

Notice that the reference to article 725 are only for remote-control and signaling circuits.

What John C is installing is not either remote-control or signaling circuits, it is power limited wiring.

I think the NM has to go.

Bob
Posted By: iwire Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 02:06 AM
Greg.

Quote
Hi,
iwire- you said: "Class 2 and 3 circuits can be wired with any method listed in Chapter 3 NM, MC, EMT, etc."
are you sure about that?

Read the code sections I posted, what do you think 725.52(A) tells us?

IMO it tells us class 2 and 3 circuits can be wired like class 1 circuits.

Then 725.25 tells us class 1 circuits shall be wired in accordance with article 300 in a chapter 3 wiring method.

Chapter 3 wiring methods are the typical methods we use NM, MC, AC, EMT, RMC, etc.

Bob
Hi,
Iwire-I beleive it is disallowed in other sections...as pointed out in this post..

second is it even appropriate?

-regards

greg
Posted By: iwire Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 02:20 AM
Greg

Quote
Hi,
Iwire-I beleive it is disallowed in other sections...as pointed out in this post..

It is not 'disallowed' it is permitted per 725.52(A) if you do not want to follow 725.52(A) you can choose to follow 725.52(B).

Quote
725.52 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of the Class 2 or Class 3 Power Source.

Class 2 and Class 3 circuits on the load side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed using wiring methods and materials in accordance with either 725.52(A) or (B).

If you chose to use 725.52(B) then, and only then do you need to look at 725.71 at all.

So in your opinion I can not run class 2 or 3 circuits in EMT or MC? (Both are chapter 3 wiring methods)

That would be a real problem in a commercial and industrial jobs. [Linked Image]

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-15-2005).]
Hi,
bob-no, i agree with you there..anything BUT NM-are the proper methods..but i do not think that nm cable CAN be used in ANY place of assembly.

i am chewing on this for my rebuttal...i will come back to this after i find the nail for your coffin! (just kidding)

very interesting though!

if your right i will buy you a coke!

-regards

greg
Posted By: iwire Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 02:37 AM
Greg I think the NM must be removed from the theater auditorium, as I said a few posts back.

My argument was about this statement that George made.

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NM cable is not acceptable for a Class 2 circuit per 725.52.

I believe that is incorrect.

Have a great day. [Linked Image]

Bob
BOB-ok i am sorry that i missed that...i thought thats what you said but i couldnt find it!

it is obvious you know your beans!

thanks for the comments..

-regards

greg
Posted By: e57 Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 03:29 AM
Bob , this is another one of those circular code dealy thing a ma gigs. Let's see if I can see past my bottle of Chimay to keep this straight in my own mind. (You know I hate romex....) Anyway, let the code circle begin here:
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411.4 Locations Not Permitted.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall not be installed (1) where concealed or extended through a building wall, unless using a wiring method specified in Chapter 3, or (2) within 3.0 m (10 ft) of pools, spas, fountains, or similar locations, except as permitted by Article 680.
The installation requirements of 411.4 recognize that shock and fire hazards still exist, even with low-voltage systems.
So now we're back in chapter 3 wiring methods.... Forget anything in chapter 7 now. As it sounds like it is concealed it's limited to chapter 3 now. 394.12 is also in chapter 3. You wouldn't install K&T? How 'bout Smurf tube? Well, you could if it were encased in 2" of concrete... Can you do that with romex? No! So, this all comes down to fire ratings of wiring methods and finish. (The way I see it.) This is some commentary following 520.4(C)
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Theaters and similar buildings are usually required to be of fire-rated construction, as determined by applicable building codes; therefore, the fixed wiring methods are limited. See 518.4 for the requirements on wiring methods.
The exception to the requirements for metal-enclosed, or concrete-enclosed, fixed wiring permits the installation of communications circuits, Class 2 and Class 3 remote-control and signaling circuits, sound-reproduction wiring, and fire alarm circuits using wiring methods from the respective articles covering these systems in Chapters 7 and 8. Where portability, flexibility, and adjustments are necessary for portable switchboards, stage lighting, and special effects, suitable cords and cables are permitted. In accordance with 520.5(C), Type NM cable, Type AC cable, ENT, and RNC are permitted as the wiring method in buildings or portions of buildings that are not required to be of fire-rated construction.
Now even if we allow ourselves to think about chapter 7, we end up in 725.71 again. If you have the handbook version of the the 2002, or 1999 NEC both have a whole lotta mumbo jombo 'bout "Flame propagation" and the "Vertical flame testing procedures", smoke production, bla, bla, bla. It's darn clear they intended to limit smoke producing and flame travel inherent wiring methods.

Back to NM... (As we were limited to chapter 3 in 411 for this class 2 lighting purpose, although there are many other materials in that chapter, but MN is in question here.) The same thing happens, Fire ratings, smoke, and flame travel, etc. the commentary following 334.10 is as follows:
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A well-established means of codifying fire protection and fire safety requirements is to classify buildings by types of construction, based on materials used for the structural elements and the degree of fire resistance afforded by each element. The five fundamental construction types used by the model building codes are Type I (fire resistive), Type II (noncombustible), Type III (combination of combustible and noncombustible), Type IV (heavy timber), and Type V (wood frame). Types I and II basically require all structural elements to be noncombustible, whereas Types III, IV, and V allow some or all of the structural elements to be combustible (wood).
The selection of building construction types is regulated by the building code, based on the occupancy, height, and area of the building. The local code official or the architect for a building project can be consulted to determine the minimum allowable (permitted) construction type for the building under consideration. When a building of a selected height (in feet or stories above grade) and area is permitted to be built of combustible construction (i.e., Types III, IV, or V), the installation of nonmetallic sheathed cable is permitted. The common areas (corridors) and incidental and subordinate uses (laundry rooms, lounge rooms, etc.) that serve a multifamily dwelling occupancy are also considered part of the multifamily occupancy, thereby allowing the use of nonmetallic sheathed cable in those areas.
If a building is to be of noncombustible construction (i.e., Type I or II) by the owner's choice, even though the building code would permit combustible construction, the building is allowed to be wired with nonmetallic sheathed cable. In such an instance, nonmetallic sheathed cable may be installed in the noncombustible building because the Code would have permitted the building to be of combustible construction.
Annex E provides charts and other explanatory information to assist the user in understanding and categorizing the exact types of construction under consideration. A table to cross reference building types to the various building code types of construction is provided in Annex E also.
Then theres 334.12 uses not permitted... "(4)In theaters and similar locations, except where permitted in 518.4." 518.4, gets you again sayin' only in
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(B) Nonrated Construction. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable, Type AC cable, electrical nonmetallic tubing, and rigid nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted to be installed in those buildings or portions thereof that are not required to be of fire-rated construction by the applicable building code.
FPN:Fire-rated construction is the fire-resistive classification used in building codes.
Anyway it seems pretty clear they dont want any more plastic, smoke producing, flame travel in this fire rated area.
Posted By: e57 Re: Romex in a theatre/place of assembly - 03/16/05 03:37 AM
Sorry Bob, I thought you were defending NM... And it took me that long to rant.
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