ECN Forum
Posted By: George Little Panel in bedroom - 01/20/05 02:44 PM
Had a contractor ask me if it is okay to install a Service panel in a bedroom. Based on the controversy over AFCI's in bedrooms I thought this was an interesting question. What would be a proper response to this question?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/20/05 05:47 PM
I think the code is silent about that.
Posted By: Ryan_J Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/20/05 06:00 PM
Installing a panel in a bedroom is fine. A panel isn't an outlet, in my opinion.
Posted By: George Little Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/20/05 10:52 PM
There are those that say that any box that has a neutral and a hot in it should be considered an outlet. I don't happen to be one of them. But if you are one than I guess you would not install or permit the installation of a panel in the bedroom [Linked Image]

Edited for spelling not content.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 01-20-2005).]
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/20/05 11:17 PM
I had an apartment (that was built sometime around 1990) in Silicon Valley California that had the panel in the bedroom, behind the door. I suppose they chose that location as tennants would not place furnature in front of the panel as it would block opening the door to exit the bedroom (panel was in wall pependicular to the wall that the door was in). .
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/21/05 12:11 AM
People can argue it any way they want. It is not an outlet. It is allowed in a bedroom.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/21/05 06:41 AM
Take a look at this thread:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000718.html

and ask that question again. [Linked Image] Admittedly violent failures like that are rare, but how would you feel if it happened in your bedroom?

Frankly, I wouldn't feel o.k. with it. Just my opinion.

I'd rather the damn thing be in the living room!

Edited for spelling.

EDIT #2: Here's another example:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000838.html

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 01-21-2005).]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 01-22-2005).]
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/22/05 09:03 PM
We cannot install electrical equipment with the thought that something disastrous is going to occur. If we did, we would go back to candle light dinners [Linked Image].

Regardless of that, it is permitted to be installed in bedrooms.

Pierre
Posted By: pauluk Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/22/05 09:34 PM
Quote
A panel isn't an outlet, in my opinion.
I don't see how it could be classed as an outlet either.

From Article 100:
Quote
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/23/05 08:45 AM
Quote
We cannot install electrical equipment with the thought that something disastrous is going to occur. If we did, we would go back to candle light dinners .

Regardless of that, it is permitted to be installed in bedrooms.

I think candlelight dinners are cool! [Linked Image]

I also agree with PCBlarge's statement, we cannot assume the worst when any thing is installed. :thumbs up:

But by the same token, as we've all seen in real life and in this forum, just because it's permitted doesn't necessarily mean it's the smart (or safest) thing to do.

Like wa2ise had posted, I too lived in an apartment with the breaker panel in the bedroom (the smaller of the two rooms). I used that room as an office. And that panel had no high-current (or 208v) loads served from it. (The complex was 208/120 service.)

My other apt. in Central Calif. had the panel located in the laundry "closet" with the washer and dryer. Again, no high loads. (Gas dryer.) (Of course, now the working clearance was questionable at best...)

So really, I guess to clarify my position, IF there were no Range, Elect. dryer or water heater loads served I would be o.k. with a bedroom panel, NOT located in the master bedroom. Otherwise, no way. I'm kinda stubborn like that. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/23/05 03:55 PM
MX, your argument makes no sense at all. You base your panel location on the size of the load? What the heck does that have do do with a major failure. Why would a lightly loaded panel be ok in one bdedroom but not a master bedroom. Thank god most guys don't bother submitting code chnge proposals because there are some real oddball ideas out there. I can see it now. All residential loadcenters shall be installed in a NASA approved explosionproof vault. [Linked Image] The good news is we work from the NEC and therfore I can put as many panels in bedrooms as i would like.
Posted By: luckyshadow Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/23/05 05:05 PM
Mx - I agree with electricman. What does the load have to do with the location ?
Why would you prefer it in another bedroom not the master ? With this reasoning you would rather have it in your kids bedroom where they are more likely to tamper with it ? If I were wiring this apartment and had to place the panel in a bedroom I would chose the master for this very reason.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/23/05 09:26 PM
electricman:

You've brought up many good points in your post. The load size matters because a lightly loaded panel would be less likely to suffer a major failure than a heavily loaded one. Of course, any gear can fail at any loading, but heat buildup, potential for arcing, etc. would be higher for a larger load, would it not? Since both failures cited in the threads above started with the high current loads, I think the logic stands.

I wouldn't even suggest a code change proposal on this, mainly because if panels in bedrooms have been around for a long time, it was not considered a safety hazard before. Like I said in my last post, just because Code allows it doesn't mean it's the best of ideas. And that's the position I take on this.

The reality in construction on many projects dictates that there really is no other choice for panel location. In that case, you try for best and safest possible location. If I had to install a panel in my current apartment, the dining room area has suitable wall space and clearances. And only my small bedroom has a wall cavity with suitable clearance space for a panel (not likely to be blocked by furniture.)

NASA explosionproof vault? I think we all know NASA's record with explosions. [Linked Image]

luckyshadow:

As for loading, I just answered that above. [Linked Image]

And at every apartment with bedroom panels I've seen, the panels were NEVER in the master bedroom! Which makes your point of kids tampering extremely valid! That is why I just don't like the idea of panels in bedrooms period, since they seem to end up in the smaller bedroom.

Finally, my conditional o.k. of not in the master bedroom is based on the admittedly biased view of being single with no kids. If I had kids I definately wouldn't want it in their room! Though I can also see that IF something did happen, and the panel were in the Master bedroom, then an adult would be better able to handle the situation. The flip side? If something went wrong, say in the middle of the night, the resulting smoke fumes incapacitated the adults, the fire spreads, you can fill in the rest..... so there is no clear cut answer.

I'm glad to see so many points of view being expressed here, that's what it's all about. [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 01-23-2005).]
Posted By: luckyshadow Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/23/05 09:39 PM
Well thought out points !
Maybe it is time to "outlaw" panels in bedrooms
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/23/05 10:57 PM
NFPA is a tombstone agency. How many people have died from panel fires in a bedroom?
Posted By: mxslick Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/27/05 05:25 AM
Good question, gfretwell. I'll do some research and post here with the results!
Posted By: Yoopersup Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/27/05 01:49 PM
Outlets cause more fires in bedrooms then anything lets get them otta the bedrooms also!
Posted By: luckyshadow Re: Panel in bedroom - 01/28/05 02:31 AM
Thats why you now use AFCI breakers in bedrooms.
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