ECN Forum
Posted By: trekkie76 disconnect on pole service - 12/09/04 01:29 AM
O.K. I am sure this question has been asked, but I am at an impass. Is a disconnect required for a service on a pole feeding a house? transformer is on pole, SE comes down to meter, pole is 100' feet from house. I beleive 230-70 says I need to have on there, but I am having difficulties with others on the proper course of action. Any help would be appreciated.
Posted By: Roger Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/09/04 02:04 AM
Trekkie, take note of 230.70(A)(1),

either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

This would imply (atleast to me) that the (or a) disconnecting means be located at the structure.

Roger
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/09/04 02:27 AM
Why do you put the meter on the pole by the street and not on the house?

Is this a local utility requirement?

shortcircuit
Posted By: makokiller Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/09/04 12:21 PM
Hi, our power co. does not allow a meter on their pole, we need to if the customer does not want the meter on the house, to install a pedistal, and the meter goes on there, and the service panel just inside the house where the conduit enters...
Posted By: trekkie76 Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/10/04 06:39 PM
the pole being a structure right Roger?
Posted By: Ryan_J Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/10/04 10:13 PM
Yes, the pole is a structure, as defined. See article 100 definition.
Posted By: Speedy Petey Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/11/04 01:33 AM
I think it depends on local codes as well. Around here pedestals and customer poles DO NOT require disconnects. We do them all the time. They do require two ground rods though.

edit: Sorry, should read "...meters on pedestals & customer poles..."

[This message has been edited by Speedy Petey (edited 12-10-2004).]
Posted By: tdhorne Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/11/04 02:15 PM
I don't see anything in section 230.70 that would require a disconnect at the pole. I have seen a lot of curbside meters, especially in rural service, that supplied service equipment located clean out of sight from the meter. Utilities require meters on poles so that they do not have to enter the property to read them. The location of the meter does not govern the location of the service disconnecting means. A good example is the yard pole or pedestal very commonly found on agricultural properties. The metering occurs at the pole to facilitate the use of a single meter for the entire premise. The service disconnecting means can then be located either at the meter or on each building.

If you do decide to locate the service disconnecting means at the pole you will still have to locate the building disconnecting means at each building. In the event that there are conductive pathways between those buildings you would be required to run an equipment grounding conductor with the feeder to each building. This will markedly raise the cost of the installation.
--
Tom H
Posted By: trekkie76 Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/11/04 04:13 PM
The way I read the section, you need a means of disconnecting the service-entrance conductors at every building or structure. I don't think the meter would serve this function. Otherwise your only disconnect is the switch on the pot. But how does that section work for uninterrupted risers at said pole? I see that all the time too, and there is no disconnect.For clarifaction, the bottom half of the service is in sch 80, 3 wire, ground rods at pole and house.
Posted By: Frank Cinker Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/11/04 04:18 PM
I live in Pittsburgh, PA. The following link is taken directly from our Power Company's installation rule book:

Duquesne Light

No disconnect required for pole mounted meter.

Edit by iwire to shorten link

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 12-15-2004).]
Posted By: trekkie76 Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/12/04 01:01 AM
but can the POCO override the NEC, if the installation falls under the jurisdiction of the NEC? Or is the pole and top half considered utility property, and fall under 90-2(B)(5)?
Posted By: OreElect Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/12/04 02:10 AM
Portland General pdf

Edit by iwire to shorten link

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 12-15-2004).]
Posted By: Frank Cinker Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/12/04 11:10 AM
The pole shown in the link I provided is customer owned because the power company does not permit a meter enclosure to be mounted on their pole.
If the power company does not require a disconnect I think that would be considered Code compliant as far as the AHJ is concerned. From the information you listed in your original question, I do not believe you need a disconnect at pole.
Posted By: trekkie76 Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/12/04 07:14 PM
Why would the POCO not requiring a disconnect make it ok if it is required by the NEC? Seems to me they can't dictate NEC to us anymore then we can to them.
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/12/04 10:03 PM
230.66
The last sentence:
Individual meter socket enclosures shall not be considered service equipment.

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

I do not see how these conductors are supplying power to the pole. For that matter, would not all poles (structures) require a disconnect for that matter?

Pierre
Posted By: Frank Cinker Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/13/04 01:41 PM
trekkie76-

Installation of a disconnect would not be illegal, just not a requirement. Of course if this were for a mobile home a disconnect would be a requirement.
I assume electrical engineers create a power company's installation rule book and approve drawings within the book.
If they don't require a disconnect I would not think an electrical inspector would require a disconnect.


[This message has been edited by Frank Cinker (edited 12-13-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Frank Cinker (edited 12-13-2004).]
Posted By: George Little Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/13/04 11:11 PM
FWIW, In case anybody cares, by putting the meter on the pole and then feeding the customer underground with or without a disconnect means the customer will be paying for any voltage drop and leakages involved with the underground wiring.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 12-13-2004).]
Posted By: trekkie76 Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/13/04 11:46 PM
then why is the language of the section 230-70 and 230-70(A)1 using the word structure? They didn't have to put that in there. So, how do you disconnect the structure (pole) from the service entrance conductors?
Posted By: mustangelectric Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/14/04 12:22 AM
Hi,

Quote:
"Of course if this were for a mobile home a disconnect would be a requirement."

I do not beleive there is a requirement to have a disconnect further than 30 feet from a MOBILE OR MANUFACTURED home. There may be a POCO requirement for this or AHJ but nothing in the code.

No disconnect is reqired at a meterbase on the pole whether it is a house or a mobile home.

The main has to be on either side of the wall for a residence.

The disconnect can be mounted on a MANUFACTURED HOME but NOT a MOBILE HOME. ( I would not reccommend it)

You still need a disconnect inside a mobile home or manufactured home even if you have a disconnect within 30 feet.

Meters are placed by the POCO so they can read them and so they do not have to change drawings for different drops at an address.

We just hashed all this out in another thread..

-regards

Greg

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 12-13-2004).]
Posted By: Matt M Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/14/04 07:08 PM
Pedestal or pole mounted meter sockets are very popular here in northern Minnesota for rural residences with outbuildings. It is extremely rare to see a disconnecting means at the meter locations. Its very common now to see two 320 amp sockets on a 4' X 4' sheet of treated plywood pedestal. One socket for the main power, the other for off-peak metering.
Posted By: iwire Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/15/04 11:38 AM
Interesting thread. [Linked Image]

IMO any structure we supply with electricity we also must provide a disconnect. There are a few exceptions like light poles and signs.

We do not supply electricity to the utility owned poles, it is up to them to require a disconnect or not. [Linked Image]

Once you leave this utility owned pole the first structure supplied on the premises would need a service disconnect switch.

A customer owned pole that simply carries the overhead line further in IMO is not a structure being supplied by electricity.

A meter pedestal on the other hand IMO is being supplied by electricity. The meter uses electricity to operate.

A structure is "That which is built or constructed." IMO a meter pedestal is a structure and would need a disconnect at it.

I have got to run but I will get back with some NEC sections. [Linked Image]

It would be great to hear some other opinions on all this.

Have a great day all. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/16/04 01:53 AM
When installing a meter pedestal remote from a one family dwelling (except mobile homes)IMO...I don't see the need for a disconnect at a meter pedestal. What need would a disconnect serve at a meter pedestal? A disconnect at a building or structure is a means of safely disconnecting the power supply to the premises wiring system. I don't believe it was the intent of the code to require a disconnect for pedestal meter. If the POCO sees a safety issue they can require a manual bypass in the meter housing.

shortcircuit
Posted By: iwire Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/16/04 11:25 AM
Shortcircuit

Quote
I don't see the need for a disconnect at a meter pedestal.

I agree with you, considering the meter would likely be on the supply side of the disconnect per the power co.

But as always we have to decide which of these we are discussing. [Linked Image]

1)What many of feel is safe?

2)What is required by the NEC?

3)What is required by the local AHJ?

4)What was the intent?

My posts (I like to think [Linked Image] ) are based on the NEC sections.

I also understand each area has certain ways of doing things that work for them. [Linked Image]

Back to the NEC. [Linked Image] The rules in the NEC are fairly consistent about disconnecting means for any equipment we supply power to.

Appliances, motors, HVAC, services, separate buildings or structures etc.

Quote
230.70 General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.

(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).

(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

Given that location requirement and the NEC definition of structure IMO the NEC requires a disconnect at the meter pedestal.

Just my read of this, glad to hear other views.

Bob
Posted By: tdhorne Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/16/04 07:02 PM
Let's apply some common sense here folks.
Do we install a disconnecting means at a front yard pole light? Do parking lots have disconnects on their individual light poles?

The critical point here is were the state public utility regulatory authority has set as the demarcation point. Regardless of who supplied or installed the metering equipment it is not subject to the NEC unless it is on the customer side of the demarcation point. The State regulatory agency is the only organization that can set the break between the NESC and the NEC. In the vast majority of overhead services the State will identify the splices between the drop and the Service Entry Conductors as the demarcation point. There is quite a bit of variation on were the demarcation point for underground services will be but it is consistently on the customers premise. In general no utility company wants the customer or their agents to be doing work on their poles.

The only property I know of were there is a requirement for a switch at a pole were a meter is located is the requirement in 547.9 Electrical Supply to Building or Structures from a Distribution Point. The definition of Distribution Point is found only in the agricultural buildings chapter. If there was in fact a generalized requirement for a disconnect at poles thy correlating committee of the standard would have required that the language be in the sections covering services or outside feeders and branch circuits.
--
Tom H
Posted By: iwire Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/16/04 08:28 PM
Tom you bring up a good point.

Quote
Do we install a disconnecting means at a front yard pole light? Do parking lots have disconnects on their individual light poles?

No we do not install disconnects at each pole but they are still required to have disconnecting means. [Linked Image]

There is an exception that allows the required disconnecting means to be located elsewhere.

2002 NEC
Quote
225.32Exception No. 3: For towers or poles used as lighting standards, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.

And another for signs.

Quote
225.32Exception No. 4: For poles or similar structures used only for support of signs installed in accordance with Article 600, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.

IMO you would need an exception in 230.70 similar to the above exceptions for feeders to exempt the meter pedestal from the 230.70 requirements.

OR you have an AHJ that reads it differently. [Linked Image]

Services are installed in many different ways across the country all from the same NEC. [Linked Image]

The one on my house is typical here but would not pass in CA, and a CA service would not pass here. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: trekkie76 Re: disconnect on pole service - 12/16/04 10:29 PM
I just had a talk with the local POCO. They said if it was direct burial cable, it needs a disconnect. If the lateral is in conduit, no disconnect required. They couldn't really say why, just" Those are our rules, and they where approved by the state". Well, its cheaper for me, so I am not complaining, but I just hate an NEC issue that I feel is unsettled.
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