Hi,
I need to set a 60A load center out at a pool for the pumps/heat etc..

Is it best to feed this whole panel from a gf breaker or just use individual breakers where required? All of this equipment has to be fed from a GF breaker anyway does it not? Outlets can get a GFI recept but the pump is 240 V and the heat is 120 V.

Thanks for any replies.

-regards

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-28-2004).]

Myself I don't like having too many different things on one GFI. Using seperate GFI breakers it would make problem solving much easier if you had an intermitant tripping.

Something to think about- if you have a grounf leakage in one piece of equipment, everything shuts down. How do you troubleshoot this down to the faulty item? Also, if your feeder is long, the (capacitive?) coupling to ground can trip the feeder breaker. I know the square D QO-GFI breakers list a max length for downstream conductors, can't remember what it is at the moment.

I asked a similiar question to an inspector once- If we have an area that needs a bunch of GFI's, like a commercial kitchen or similiar , can't we just put a Ground Fault system like those used for services on the feeder and hook it to a shunt trip breaker, and set it at 5mA??? He said that that would satisfy the NEC, but would be a really bad design, because of the reasons above.
Mike

The pump doesn't have to be GFCI unless it is cord and plug connected, nor does the heater. You can probably just put in one GFCI breaker for the light and receptacle.

Hi,
I am glad I asked this question. I see where you are coming from. It would be difficult to isolate a problem downstream if there were multiple circuits and several devices on the gf breaker.

I plan to hard wire the pump and the heat...the convenience outlets will get a GFI recept each.

Doesnt the case of the pump motor have to bond to the egc and the pool steel?

The pool contractor did all the grounding on the pool itself and ran a insulated #8 thhn over to the pump pad...i am just going to bond this to the egc.

I do not need a ground rod do I?

thanks

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-28-2004).]

Pool pump motors have a lug for the bonding conductor up near the pump head. This is separate from the EGC connection which is a green screw in the wiring compartment although they are both electrically common through the motor frame.
You may find out the bonding wire was supposed to be solid. YMMV
Some newer lugs, particularly the StaRite, are only listed for solid wire.
You don't need a rod

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 10-28-2004).]

Mustang I have to agree with Active 1.
A service call I went out on for a pool panel with intermittent tripping turned into a 3 day call. 200 amp GFI breaker feeding 42 circuit panel for pool equipment. This was an indoor pool in an assisted care living center. Every other day the main would trip shutting down the whole pool area. One circuit fed from this panel was the lights for the pool area. Not good having people in their 80's put in the dark. Ended up removing GFI main & installing GFI breakers as needed. Also traced problem down to a bad filter pump which was replaced. Customer did not want GFI main for panel any longer. He had the pool wired this way originally to save money on individual GFI circuit breakers.
Al

[This message has been edited by capt al (edited 10-28-2004).]

Hi,
Are you saying the bonding wire from the pool steel needs to be solid? or are you saying the bond for the case must be solid? i knew that was required for a spa/hot tub..but would have to go look to see if it is a solid conductor that is required here.

the last time i bonded a pool i used all solid wire..

i was planning on running the bond from the motor case along the outside of the NM Flex and grounded to the panel using a lug on the outside.

the pool cotnractor ran stranded #8 from the pool to the pump

what is YMMV?


thanks for the info

mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-28-2004).]

Back to the main GFCI or individual ones.

It is always a better installation to use individual GFCI protection.

Each device connected to the GFCI main has some leakage current, the total of this leakage current may well trip the GFCI main.

If this happens it will be frustrating to troubleshoot as each branch circuit will be fine when tested, it is only when all are connected at the same time that the problem will happen.

Keep in mind if you decide to use a GFCI main to provide required personal protection the trip level will still have to be 5 ma.

Bob

680.26(C) requires a solid conductor for the pool bonding grid.

I would definitely go with individual GFI breakers if possible.

Many installations here in Britain use a single GFI to protect the entire house, and I can assure you that it can be a real pain when the whole system goes down due to a fault on one circuit.

(Yes, I speak from experience! Having a heating element develop a ground fault and trip out the entire house while taking a shower at night does little to endear the main GFI system to anyone! )

Hi,

the pool company used #8 stranded and has already backfilled. the wire is ran from the wet niche to a bolt and secured by being wrapped around the bolt and secured with a nut then is brought over to the pump pad.

i would not be allowed to terminate a stranded conductor to my equipment coming from the pool would I?

thanks for the great replies.

-regards

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 10-29-2004).]

Mustang,

will the AHJ allow the stranded?

there is no depth requirment for the #8 solid bond. run it over grade and let the landscapers drop sod over it.

above the code - IMHO the real safety issue is the bolt and nut. is it stainless steel (SS)? if not, it will rust away in a few years. i keep a case of bond hardware. everything in the case is SS, brass, bronze or copper (UG listed if possible). nuts, bolts, external tooth lock washers, lugs and split bolts, all corrosion resistent for the wet, chemical laden environment of a pool.

Hi,
The pool co has obviously been doing pools for some time..i cant imagine that they do not know they need a solid conductor...

i do not know if the ahj will allow it or not...i did not install it and it is not my job...i was just wondering where i stand on liability...they will have to terminate the wire if they leave it..

the ahj can override the code?

thanks for the replies

-regards

Mustang

I got a fight started on the Florida IAEI bb when I suggested that pool companies were installing this wire. Their take is this should be done by a licensed electrician. If they are using stranded for the bonding grid maybe the IAEI is right. The only place you can use the stranded is from the wet niche to the light junction box in a PVC raceway. They call that a grounding wire, not a bonding wire.

mustang

"i did not install it and it is not my job...i was just wondering where i stand on liability"

typically, the electric permit is pulled under your license. if so, then:

1. this violation will be applied against that permit. so, your license is on the line until the violation is cleared.

2. you represent the NEC for the entire permitted job. you are 100% liable for work covered by the NEC, whether the inspector gigs you or not.

IMO, running the bond, pulling the lights, etc. are favors the pool contractor does for the electrician so the electrician can complete a pool in one trip. treat them as if an employee had done the work. correct the mistakes, charge for it if you can, gently teach the contractor and move on.

good luck

This is what one of the CBOs said on the IAEI bb
"As far as the pool guy.... well, if I catch him it will be a $500.00 ticket for unlicensed contracting, or an appearance before the judge."

gfretwell, I wish more AHJ's would slap a fine for being unlicensed. I believe it would help weed out the ham & egger fly by night outfits.

Al

[This message has been edited by capt al (edited 10-30-2004).]

I feel that the electrical contractor (EC)should do all of the work. However now a days, they don't. I see where excavators will dig trenchs and install PVC pipe for the EC. I also see where pool companies have specialized crews to install pools. 1 crew will put in the rebar (or metal frame) and do the bonding, the next crew can come along and install the equipment and underground piping. Now up to this point no electrical wire has been pulled. Then the EC comes in and makes all of the connections. Is it wrong? What about an excavator who leaves a large piece of electrical PVC under a driveway so that the EC can hook up into that pipe sometime in the future. A service line or driveway lights, etc. As long as the pipe is the correct type of pipe, the proper about of bends and the proper depth, is there a problem?

The guys over in the Fl IAEI bb say the bonding is also "electrical" and needs to be done by the EC, not the pool steel company but the reality is anyone the EC would send for this 2 minute job might not be as good as a pool guy who does 2 a day.
The inspector took about 30 seconds to look at mine. (6 handrail cups, 2 wet niche shells and the steel). No he really didn't look at much of anything.

As for driveway sleeves, around here they drop in a 4" white PVC. FPL (contractor) will push their 2" through it if they need to get over there and you might also see a sprinkler line or TV cable shoved in later.
The reality is none of this will be inspected.
My wife said her structural inspector was complaining that he had 42 to do on Thursday, along with driving about 50-60 miles. It's a wonder they see anything.

thank you, gfretwell, for a look into the IAEI and insight that is RIGHT ON!

"...the reality is anyone the EC would send for this 2 minute job might not be as good as a pool guy who does 2 a day."

in central florida a pool is inspected a minimum of four times, and not many of them are drive byes. coincidentally, the inspections fall just after every NEC related item.

every time rebar goes in there is a bond clamp, and an inspection.

some SCH 40 underground, or a light gets pulled. open trench inspection, inspection for potting compound at wet niche lug.

final inspection always includes a grab and tug on the screen bond.

between the flunking at one end and the EC riding herd at the other, all the pool subs feel the heat. they are experts at their "2 minute job(s)". and, on average, they do a more conscientious job than we do.

the grey SCH 40 the plumber puts in has primer at the glue joints, do yours?

most of the bond clamps on the rebar are potted. they are UL listed for concrete encased, i don't pot mine.

ok, it's not all sunshine and roses. i'd like to stop the plumbers from stringing the pool lights a stick at a time. complete the pipe run then pull the light!

sorry for the rant, some of my pool work is an hour drive away. changing a one trip job to a four trip job because of a petty, pig-headed bureaucrat gets my goat. the CBO's not gonna pay for my extra six hours of drive time.

safety is job #1. be safe, bond tight, don't let the lightning bug bite.

One thing I did spend some time on was the "lug on the ladder cup" deal and the inspectors are right. The pool guys, and perhaps even some ECs are not installing the wire properly in the molded lug and that is why inspectors want a bolted lug added. The wire is not supposed to wrap around the screw in the cup, it just lays in the groove on both sides and gets clamped by the screw.

I ended up with 5 inspections on my pool. The structural guy does a pool steel and a deck/screen cage footer steel. You get electrical on each of those too.
The electrical inspector does the final/safety.
I was far beyond the code on my bonding so I didn't have any real problems. I ran a ring in the deck steel and 6 radials out to the screen cage. I got a deal on the materials, labor was free. ;-)

By shutting off the individual breakers in the panel, then turning them back on until the GFI trips....Pretty easy

Scott it is not so easy if the trip is the result of the total leakage current and not one defective piece of a equipment.

Bob

Hi,
Thanks again for the replies. I did not pull a permit for any work on the pool other than setting a panel, connecting the pump and heat, supplying a couple outlets and installing 4 coach lights. This work is clearly spelled out in my contract. My liability is only for work I do.

If I on a job and run temp power for the site then some idiot comes along and fries himself by jerry rigging something, I am not liable. My insurance company has a team of lawyers that will back me up I am sure. They wont pay a claim that easy.

As for the inspector, I will gladly inform him of the work I did. If I am liable/responsible for that wire...then I have to be compensated for that...so far I do not have an agreement that covers that work. I dont do any work over $500 without a signed contract.

I will find out today what they did about changing the wire. I advised the homeowner and he was supposed to let the pool guy know that I will not connect it.

I dont want to get into any legal scraps with anyone.

-regards

Mustang

Hi,
I forgot to respond to this comment:

"IMO, running the bond, pulling the lights, etc. are favors the pool contractor does for the electrician so the electrician can complete a pool in one trip. treat them as if an employee had done the work. correct the mistakes, charge for it if you can, gently teach the contractor and move on."


I apprciate your comments but respectfully disagree. I do not want anybody doing these type "favors" for me. The idea that someone would go out and involve me in a contract without first consulting with me is not doing me any favors and I would not be a party to this type of business practice. I do not know these folks and have asked them to do nothing for me.

By doing these favors they are taking work from me and doing work illegally if you ask me. You cant do electrical work in my state without a license and if you are an apprentice you need a license too and you have to go to school.

These pool guys need to leave the electrical work to electricians or they need to carry a masters license/contractors license.

I warned the homeowner in the beginning that there would be some electrical work involved with the pool and asked if he wanted me to include that in my proposal...hes commented that the pool guy said he would take care of it...he took care of it all right..

-regards

Mustang

Hi,
Spoke to the AHJ and they said that as long as the conductor was insulated they would accept it.

I guess that solves that.

GFI protection only on individual ckt.

thanks for the replies.

-regards

Mustang

As many folks pointed out this should be solid but Your Mileage May Vary. Evidently the pool guy and the AHJ have an understanding. ... or perhaps we have a misunderstanding about what this wire is.
The "insulated" #8 that may be stranded is the wire from the forming shell to the Junction box for a wet niche inside a PVC raceway. Maybe someone has decided that is also any other wire from the forming shell. The reason this wire is supposed to be insulated is it runs through pool water for most of it's length. The raceway from a wet niche to the Jbox is underwater up to the water level. That is why we pot the niche end and pot the box if it isn't 8" above maximum water level.

Hi,
Thanks for the rplies. I guess the AHJ doesnt mind #8 stranded for the bonding portion...they tied the wet niche to this.

What is POTTING? Is this where you solder?

What do you mean my "Mileage" may vary? You lost me there..

-regards

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 11-02-2004).]

Hi,
I am just wondering if I have any liability left when the inspector gives an installation that does not meet the code his approval/acceptance? I know that the inspector has no liability because it says so on the permit.

Since the installation done by the pool guy does not conform to the NEC by them using a #8 stranded conductor to ground and bond the steel and the wet niche lights, what would my liability be? I am not connecting this wire but they will undoubtedly do it.

I know the AHJ can request certain things but I think they must only verify that the installation meets the NEC.

I am not saying that (the inspector) is wrong but the NEC clearly says SOLID

I appreciate any replies..

-regards

Mustang

YMMV is just a catch all expression (from the car commercials) that means things may be a little different for you. Inspectors are a strange breed of cat, particularly if they come from a legacy before national certification and licensing. A lot of times they make up rules as the go along.
In your case YOU are probably the only one with any skin in the game. In most states inspectors are protected by soverign immunity and an injured party will have to sue the state to get to them. The state has to agree that they will let someone sue them.
It is a lot easier to go after the license holder.

Potting is that epoxy compound you put inside the wet niche, totally encasing the wet lug and the #8 insulated conductor that runs along with the lamp cord back to the listed swimming pool J box (AKA deck box, although they are not usually on the deck)

See 680.23(B)(2) Wiring Extending Directly to the Forming Shell. Conduit shall be installed from the forming shell to a suitable junction box or other enclosure located as provided in 680.24. Conduit shall be rigid metal, intermediate metal, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic, or rigid nonmetallic.
(a) Metal Conduit. Metal conduit shall be approved and shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal.
(b) Nonmetallic Conduit. Where a nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated solid or stranded copper equipment grounding conductor shall be installed in this conduit unless a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding is used. The equipment grounding conductor shall be terminated in the forming shell, junction box or transformer enclosure, or ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosure. The termination of the 8 AWG equipment grounding conductor in the forming shell shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water.

Handbook comment
Where rigid nonmetallic conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit is used between a forming shell for a wet-niche fixture and a junction box or other enclosure, an 8 AWG insulated copper equipment grounding conductor is required to be installed in the conduit to provide electrical continuity between the forming shell and the junction box or other enclosure. The conduit must be sized large enough to enclose both the 8 AWG insulated copper bonding conductor and the approved flexible cord that supplies the wet-niche fixture, to facilitate easy withdrawal and insertion of the grounding conductor and the cord. Low-voltage lighting systems are exempt from this equipment gounding conductor requirement.

Mustang...3M makes a suitable potting compound for the grounding conductor inside the wet niche.
Also be carefull about the depth of the light...18 inches to the top of the lense from the normal pool water level.

shortcircuit

Hi,
Thanks for the information. I have never "potted" or installed a wet niche light. I have seen the question on several exams though...it seems to be a favorite.

Now I know!

Thanks

-regards

Mustang