Maybe we should lobby for a holiday. "Test it day", preceding "Get it replaced day", followed by "Pay your bill day". It would be a long week-end for everybody but us!

It is in the manufacturers dreams that the home owner would test monthly, that a real world surveys found a lot of 2+ year olf gfis no longer worked as a gfi. Now we have the new smart lock GFI at higher cost.
I wonder when the AFCI will have a simular survey showing manufacturers dreams are junk again.
Any body who thinks that the home owner/building manager is going to spend time and/ or money pushing test buttons on GFI or AFCI is not playing with a full deck.

And even worse, these devices are not "fail safe". When the electronics quit working, you still have power, but you don't have the protection.
Don

e57, nesparky, and resqcapt19:

I posted this information for a specific purpose to share what I found on the UL site!

So what you people are saying is that the information that I posted is not of any use?

Did you people test your own GFCIs recently?

Joe,
I don't think that this information has any real use in this forum...it may in a home owners or a DIY forum. And, no I don't test monthy and keep a log as required by the manufacturer's instructions. I wonder if this is a listing and labeling requirement or just a manufacturer's instructions?
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 09-20-2004).]

Thanks JOe,
It WAS a good reminder. I think about this stuff at work (city insp.) but when I get home, they brain is on standby. I'll check 'em when I get home. All it can do is protect my family, Right!!!

Joe,
my appologies, right after you posted this , I came in with a wise %^& remark, and set the tone for mocking the idea. (Although, it was not my intent.) Sorry chief,

Mark

Mark:

No problem, I just wanted to take the time to post an image that I developed, with the thought that some would use it to teach customers, or people with some interest in this subject, how to properly test that product.

UL Information for Testing GFCI
http://www.ul.com/consumers/groundfault.html

My deck has been around for a long time, and I am still capable of producing a royal flush, or a winning hand once in a while.

What are your experiences with GFCIs?

Dare I say it, "Installation, and later, replacement."

You install it, and no-one ever tests them. Although it says "Test monthly" on it.

And the replacement after it stops providing power, which is usually some time after it stopped acting as a GFI.

Personal opinion: Where required, and the idea behind its operation is fine. Do not deny the need for them. Unfortunatley, manufactures know full and well the product is flawed. The weak circuit design is "planned obsolesence", as they know it will only operate for a limited amount of time before it needs to be replaced. (It's a cash cow) And most, when they do fail, leave the circuit un-protected. Although they have been required, and on the market for some time, have had little product improvement. GFCI's should have been designed "Fail Safe" long ago.

And while we're on the subject, is everyone else paying around $9.00 each for GFCI 15 amp receptacles? I sure would like to find them a little less expensive.
By the way, daylight savings day is recommended to change the smoke batteries, why not test the GFCI,s too?

I had an interesting service call recently. The complaint was no power at the receptacle in bathroom 2. I started there. While I was pulling that GFCI out the homeowner said that the outside receptacle was out also. I went there and found no power in or out. I checked the breakers. They were all on. I read the schedule on the panel and it had breaker 18 marked as "Bathroom GFCI and outside receptacle" So, I went to bath 1 and there was power at the GFCI. I tried to trip it with the test button, but it seemed to already be tripped!!! I pulled it out of the box and found power on the line side, but not on the load side!!! The outside receptacle and second bath were on the load side of it, something had tripped it, the load side shut off, but the receptacles in the GFCI were hot!!!!! I have never seen this before. I replaced the GFCI and solved the problem. In the process, I found numerous other problems. This was in a moblie home and the manufacturer had used the type of receptacles that don't need a box. When the place was remodeled, a lot of wiring was done by unqualified persons. They replaced the mobile home type receptacles with standard ones without bothering to use a box! They were screwed to the wall through the little rings/washers on the straps, just barely holding on. The homeowner said "oh, by the way, can you tell me why we have to hold the receptacles in the wall when we unplug stuff???) (These things always happen when I don't have my camera with me.) While we are on the subject, I require my guys to check all GFCIs on every service call, no matter what the complaint is. It is a good way to get additional work, improve safety, and it lets the customer know that you care. No one has ever refused to let us replace a GFCI that we found to be defective.
Bob

Joe
I Know you are a great electrical guy.
My comments was directed to the B/S the manufacturers put out to cover thier rear ends when they know the products will not last. If a GFI or AFCI fails to shut power off when it was supposed to and the get sued, the bogus test requirement is thier cop out. They know the average home owner or building managemebty are not going to test or keep records.
For the manufacturers to now offer a new more expensive product to finally have the GFI fail in a safe mode seem to me to be just another way for them to get more money for the product they should have made in the first place.
It is one of the things that I have a very hard time explaining to customers. It is one reason why licensed electricians are percieved to be too expensive for many customers. One more reason that home owners and handymen do so much electrical work.
I have walked thru about 30 houses in the last two months and have seen all sorts of work both good and bad, but over 75% got rid of the GFI outlets and replaced it with the $0.39 regular receptacle from a hardware store. When asked why almost all said it is cheaper than a GFI and does lose power when the circuit breaker does not trip.
While testing a GFI or AFCI is a godd idea it is not going to happen in the vast majority of the time. We need products that do not rely on tests that are not going to happen.

There are no doubts that GFCIs are a large reason that electrocutions in this country are down.

There is no doubt that manufacturers are going to protect their butts - having the instructions to test the device has and will continue to save them in court.

So lets get down to reality and realize that homeowners and Diyers will always exist and will always complain we are too expensive - so what - it seems to me most of us are still working.

How do we mimimize homeowners and Diyers from doing electrical work? Change the laws and stiffen the consequences. Remember all laws are broken everyday and we will never stop that, but we can minimize it

I have a conviction that I stand by everyday: I do not listen to complainers unless they are actively seeking to do something about the complaint!
Be proactive instead of reactive - it makes a difference.

Pierre

Joe,
Thanks for the GFI notice. I may just add that to my web page for customers instead of making my own. I've been procrastinating too long and should get it done.This is a notice that may bring in additional work even if we would include it with billings or advertising.
Ron