Violation?



What article?

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 05-20-2004).]

I don't know about a violation, but I would have wrapped the conductor the opposite way under the screw head.

Hi Paul

So would I, but is it a violation?

Bob

Bob, you had to stir the pot, didn't you??

Paul I thought screws were wrapped the opposite way in the UK. Bob nice work! Keep everyone going. I love it.

Perhaps it is a left handed screw.

Fellas,forgive me for saying this,but in my neck of the woods,I'd be tickled to see someone actually trying to comply and bond the metal box,whether it was a green screw or not,or even looped around the screw the wrong way.

Russell

That would be Article 123.ABC in the NEC. It is the common sense section for a qualified mechanic.

No really I looked and could not find anything. But it should be added to 314.40 (D)

Frank

Violation according to the NEC 2002 Handbook Article 110.14 Electrical Connections. Exhibits 110.2 and 110.3 show the proper and improper ways to terminate wires under a screw.

The NEC Handbook is far more informative and easier to understand than the Code Book.

Add uneforcable to the list as well.

I'm not saying I don't own the handbook...I have one at the office, the electronic version on both of my computers and the McGraw-Hills handbook in my home office.

When I teach, however, it is nothing but the NEC, because that is the only document that matters for enforcement and determining bare bones compliance.

Ryan J, with all due respect,the Handook IS the Code Book with illustrations and intent. I have never had an AHJ tell me the Handbook is not enforcable. They have used it in conjunction with the "Official" Code Book.

Nothing personal, JMHO.

eesparx,

This is from the front of the NEC 2002 Handbook published by NFPA:

"The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not part of the Code and do not constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA /..... / The commentary and supplementary materials, therefore solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees."

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 05-21-2004).]

Bill Addis,

I agree. I didn't mean to imply the supplementary material and commentary were part of the code.

Also from the front of the book:
"Notice Concerning Code Interpretations: This ninth addition of the National Electrical Code Handbook is based on the 2002 edition of the NFPA 70, National Electrical Code/. . . . /The handbook contains the <b>complete text<b/> of the NFPA 70 and any <b>applicable Formal Interpretatiions <b/>issued by the Association. These documents are accompianed by explanatory commentary and other supplementary materials".

In non-professional terms, The Weasel Clause:
"The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not part of the Code and do not constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA /..... / The commentary and supplementary materials, therefore solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees."


I take the code and profession very seriously; just enjoying a good debate.

I love this place.

Sheesh, I need to proofread before hitting the "send" button.

Hi eesparx, you can always edit your post if you need to with this button.

I have the hand book and I already know about the exhibits you speak of.

If you read the text with them you will find that it is info from UL for aluminum connections, no mention of copper.

Besides that there is no reference to a code section to enforce it. You could say 110.3(B) if instructions come with the product that specify a direction to wrap the screw.

This is just something to talk about, I expect the people working under my supervision to use the standard clock wise wrap.

Bob

If the wire is properly captive under the screw head, then IMHO it doesn't matter if the wire is wrapped clockwise or counter-clockwise.

This however is a matter of good practise: when you go clockwise, the wire pulls into the screw, and when you go counter-clockwise the wire gets pulled out of the screw. It is _harder_ to install the wire properly when your hook goes counter-clockwise.

Consider a wire that 'loops' around a screw, coming from somewhere, going 3/4 around the screw, and then continuing to another location. You can no longer define clockwise or counter-clockwise for this wire, but it can still be properly seated under the screw head.

-Jon

Violation? , I'd say no, looks like the box is bonded to me. Should the wire be wrapped the other way, yes but it looks like it is under the head of the screw.
Of course the hole isn't marked GND

Violation, 250.8. "Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps or other listed means." My bet is since that screw is the only screw in the box its probably a sheet metal screw used to mount the box. Anyway, its not an exothermic weld or a listed connector so it's a violation.

Kalbrecht,

Please read this thread very carefully.

Peter

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 05-21-2004).]

Yup, I read that post back when it was posted. Did I quote the code wrong or are going to show me a listing for that screw?

My bet is since that screw is the only screw in the box its probably a sheet metal screw used to mount the box.

You are an inspector of what? Obviously no electrical inspector or you would know that that is a 10/32 ground screw and green at that. No, it is not listed, I don't even know if they would list common machine screws.

Somebody propose to the NEC that this be clarified so we don't have to hear this anymore!

-Hal

For years proposals have been made to the Code to get the panel's official interpretation without going through a formal interpretation.

Make a proposal to the 2008 Code to require wires to be wrapped around screws in a clockwise direction or to require a green listed screw be used. The proposal would likely be rejected with a panel statement. The panel action and statement is now an official interpretation.

I'm not color blind and that screw doesn't look like a green grounding screw to me. What do you say we ask Iwire (who posted the picture) to take that screw out and take a close-up picture of it, then there will be no room for argument(of course I enjoy a good argument as well as anyone, hey, thats why I'm an inspector).

Kalbrecht I hope you are looking at a black and white monitor.

Yes this is a "Ground Screw" if there is such a thing.





Yes the label calls them ground screws but they are not UL listed.

I challenge anyone to show us or tell us where to find UL Listed ground screws.

They do not exist that I can find.

I'm not color blind and that screw doesn't look like a green grounding screw to me.
Believe me, it's as green as the wire. Adjust your monitor properly.

Make a proposal to the 2008 Code to require wires to be wrapped around screws in a clockwise direction or to require a green listed screw be used.

Not at all what I was talking about. I don't care which way the wire is wrapped and neither should the NEC (although it should be wrapped the other way).

What I'm saying is that section 250.8 is not complete and misleading.

The most common way to attach an equipment ground wire to a box is with a screw. Most times it is the only practical way. Section 250.8 prohibits sheet metal screws for this use and by implication allows a machine screw.

As I said, I don't think something like a machine screw can be listed and if it is the Code's intent to allow its use (as we all believe it is) 250.8 needs to be changed to clarify the intent. Even a FPN would do it.

-Hal

OK is this a violation?

This is a lug rated 1/0 to 14 AWG and is fastened to the box with a standard 1/4" x 20 nut and bolt.



Yes I know the lug is a little large but it is all I had handy and it is rated for that size wire.

250,148(A) states grounding screw or listed grounding device. Looks like a discrepancy in the code. Either should be ok

[This message has been edited by kalbrecht (edited 05-21-2004).]

Since the term "grounding screw" is not defined within the NEC, it's my intepretation that the term is used simply to clearly define the function of the screw. That is, any screw [except sheet-metal, of course] used solely to maintain continuity between a EGC and the box is by definition a "grounding screw".

That being said, I'm set in my ways: I always like to use the green screws, and I've actually moved EGCs out from under cable-clamp screws just to put them under a green screw.

Same applys with putting conductors counter-clockwise under screws; it's not wrong, just not how I do it.

-John

[This message has been edited by BigJohn (edited 05-21-2004).]

This is definitely NOT a violation. This isn't part of an electrical installation and the N.E.C. doesn't govern paper-weights. If it were part of an electrical installation, I'd be much more concerned about the missing side of the box!

Dave

How about this:

Here I'm using the threaded hole that would have been used for a clamp but there's no clamp needed at this spot. Some older boxes don't have a special ground screw hole.

Wa2ise

I see no problem with that bonding method. 250.148 (A) is satisfied, since the screw/hole is used for no other purpose. Article 314.40 (D) is satisfied, the screw is installed in a tapped hole or equivalent.

Which brings up my question. What the heck does equivalent mean in Art. 314.40 (D)?

Is this covering the use of ground clips?

Where in the code does it cover the use of these so called ground clips?

I personally hate these things. Although for some things they come in handy, like a bath exhaust fan, etc.

Frank

Frank,
Could equivalent mean any of the methods described in..

110.14(A) Terminals Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors.
Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.

-Randy

PS.. Somewhere, sometime ago, I came across some handy-boxes that had a box-side clamp with a green jumper factory installed... This might be one of those "equivalents"

Randy

Thanks for your thoughts. That sounds good to me. Those ground clips still have me wondering. How can they be accepted as a good means of connection for ground and not a tek screw.

I never seen that type of handy box.

Frank

Oops! Just posted in the other thread what should have been here. Guess my cache needs a flush.

Here, I fixed it.

Ryan
Take a look at the first name on page ix in the McGraw-Hill Handbook.

Pierre

The end of the code section says "listed means", not listed devices. Anyone care to take a stab at what they are really saying?? Is a common 10-32 machine screw a "listed means"?

Thats very impressive, Pierre. You should be proud.

I think we all got a little off track here.
I clearly see a green "ground screw" being used.
The "wrap clockwise" would be a good trade practice, as indicated by the American Electricians' Handbook. If you're going to cite for this, it would be as a workmanship issue. (The earlier handbook citation was specific for aluminum wire).
More important is the issue that was addressed so poorly by the 'no sheet metal screw' clause. We're not engineers, and I can find sources that define anything under 1/2" thick as sheet metal, and any thread form going into such metal as a 'sheet metal screw.' I think we all agree that the NEC stepped in it with that clause.

The issue? Screws of an improper size and thread form to reliably grip the holes that they were put into. Loose screws= poor ground.
IMHO, a Teks screw into its' own hole is a perfectly good connection. Even a smaller diameter "silver bullet," with its' washer head, provides a lot of wire-to-box contact for a good ground.

With this picture, I'm not sure that the hole being used is correctly sized for the screw. As with older boxes, there is no hole specifically sized to take the green screw. With such a box, a Teks screw (or a spring clip) are the only ways to ensure a good connection- unless you want to drill & tap (and I've not seen an electrician yet who has a set of taps as well as number drills on his belt).
Once again, we're not machinists either.

I'd say any connection that can be made tight enough is acceptable. What is "tight enough?" Following both UL and NEMA practices, the ground screw should be tightened to 75 pound-inches. This is best achieved by the use of a socket. See Ferm's Fast finder, or UL 486A.

...and I've not seen an electrician yet who has a set of taps as well as number drills on his belt...

Look no further. I always carry a Klein triple tap (actually six different taps). I usually run the proper size through all tapped holes to clean them up. Beats cranking a screw in with a screwdriver that doesn't want to go because the hole is tapped undersize or damaged.

Keep the proper size tap drill bit in your drill case and you are all set.

I do agree with you otherwise.

-Hal

I am still waiting for someone to point us to a UL listed grounding screw.

Or a UL category for such a thing.

Bob
I hope you have a lot of patience

Pierre

LOL Sometimes yes and other times not so much.

For this the wait may be long.

Bob

(throws a little gas on the 'screw' fire)
The IDEAL catalog I have from 2000 on page A-11 shows a UL and CSA stamping for the whole grouping of grounding connectors and accessories, which includes the screws. BUT... the online catalog page show specific bullets of UL Listed on all but the couple of bare screws. I'm going to drop a note to IDEAL rep and see what he comes up with.

Mean Gene, that fix doesn't work. You need to use a listed box, and I've never heard of listing agency with the mark "JU" .

A second for the Kleing 6-in-1 tap tool.

[mutter]damn Chinese 'standard threads' [/mutter]

Yeah,me too Doug.

UL under listing (KDER)Addresses Grounding and Bonding Equipment .

The catagorey covers bonding devices, ground clamps, and bonding bushings and locknuts, ground rods, armored grounding wire, protector grounding wire, grounding wedges, GROUND CLIPS FOR SECURING THE GROUND WIRE TO AN OUTLET BOX, watermeter shunts, and similar equipment.

UL nor other NRTL's list screws per say for the attachment of equipment grounding conductors to enclosures.

The following 2005 comment seems to indicate that CMP 5 accepts screws (other than coarse Thread SMS) all be it unlisted for this purpose


on Comment 5-40 only be reported as “Hold” consistent with Section
4-4.6.2.2 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. The
comment adds new material that has not had adequate public review. The
action on Proposal 5-57 stands as shown in the Report on Proposals.
Submitter: Frederic P. Hartwell, Hartwell Electrical Services, Inc.
Comment on Proposal No: 5-57
Recommendation: Accept the proposal in principle. Revise the last sentence
to read as follows:
“Where screws are used to make field connections of grounding conductors
or grounding terminals to enclosures, machine screws or thread-forming screws
with machine threads shall be used.”
Substantiation: The disallowance of sheet metal screws for this purpose is
appropriate, but the wording has raised three questions: what about metal-tometal
connections in listed enclosures, where the continuity has been evaluated
by the testing laboratory (presumably OK), and on field connections, what
about other screws, such as wood screws that are even less suitable than sheetmetal
screws? What about “teck” thread forming screws that result in machine
threads, but that are often referred to as a type of sheet metal screw? This
comment answers those questions. The real technical issue addressed in this
requirement is the poor mechanical advantage offered by a conventional sheet
metal screw with its very coarse threads. The submitter is aware that this comment
may need to be held in accordance with 4-4.6.2.2(a) of the Regulations,
but wanted to bring the issues to the attention of CMP 5.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative:

"
Keep the proper size tap drill bit in your drill case and you are all set."

I use the Klien tapping tool also. It's great for fixing the bottom hole in a metal box mounted in a masonary wall that usually has the screw rusted in. I use a #26 drill for the #10 tap, but I confess I don't know what the corrosponding drill sizes are for the #6 & the #8 taps, if anyone could help me out here.

Bob The 6/32 takes a #36 drill @75% thread,( Al Brass and Plastic) the 8/32 uses a # 29 drill @ 75 % thread. At 50 % (Steel and Iron)the sizes are #32 and 27 .

[This message has been edited by cpal (edited 07-19-2004).]

Fixed for SolarPowered . . .

Excellent! That will do.