Has anyone seen those new wire nuts? The ones that you don't have to twist> You just push in the wire and that's it. They make the wire nuts good for 3-4 and I think 5 conductors? I believe the brand name begins with a "W". Anyway, not that I want to start anything, but if they took away UL listing for a #12 ga wire "pin back" for receptacles, why would they allow these types of "pin back" wire nuts? Any thoughts?

Harold, I read a post somewhere, that this person's opinion was, there is more vibration at switches and receptacles and more likely a chance of the connection getting loose. I don't know the reason for the #12 elimination(while still allowing #14), but the end result is good.

Harold,

I think you mean WAGO connectors.
There's a few threads here in General and Non-US areas where they are discussed. You can do a search for WAGO.

I had the same thought about the WAGO connection being similar to the Receptacle and brought the question to the non-us area for opinions there. Apparently they have been in use for many years and I don't remember hearing any complaints about them. Some comments led me to believe they thought they were superior to our wirenuts.

>> What do you use for splicing conductors?

I'd be interested in hearing more comments on this, either here or on the other thread. I thought I saw that Ideal is making these type of connectors too, but don't seem to be advertising them much.

Bill

The last company I worked for was looking for ways to speed up work in a typical high rise. They were turned to these by the supply house. I tried a few connections and flat out refused to use them. The connections are such that ,in my opinion, a high load could cause a potential failure due to small area of contact between connector pressure point and the copper conductor. I would like to add that if you were to grab the connector and give it a tug it would pull off the wires. Try doing that with mechanically twisted wires and a wirenut.

I would trust a wirenut (I'm a pre-twister) more than this type of connector too.

I think hearing that someone trusted the push-in type of conector over the wirenut may have been at least partially because that's what they were accustomed to using. It does show some level of confidence in them though that may indicate that they do make an adequate connection for what they are used for and may be getting a bad rep here.

Bill

I use these all the time and a variant of these in all of my motor controller panels. The difference between the back-stab and these is that the back-stab use a strip of brass as the spring where the Wago push nuts use a piece of spring steel for tension and retention and a seperate piece of plated copper for the electrical contact. These are UL listed for 20A and rated for 24A. In all of the past threads about these pushnuts I have sounded like a Wago salesman, but I love them and rarely use anything else. I have heard of people having problems with using stranded 12 or 14AWG THHN/THWN but after the first couple of attempts I have it down cold and get it right the first time. I can strip and install these almost twice as fast as anyone else and I have never had a callback on any of these installations. Also... the vibration from motors has had no effect on these where I have had Wiedmuller block screws loosen over time and then melt into odd shapes...

</salespitch/>

It never ceases to amaze me, how manufacture's tout the latest cheesball widget as being the cutting edge of the trade.

Not so much that there is crap on the market, but that we in the trade trenchs believe we are offered the best <crap> here in America

and then go around waving an 'international NEC' document........

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 08-09-2003).]

Get too close to that edge and you might fall off.

P. S. I know 3M makes Scotchlok connectors for use with smaller conductors (about 18 through 26AWG). How about larger conductors? Do they have a small area of contact with the conductor? The Scotchloks do have to be squeezed once everything is in place, as opposed to just "stabbing" the conductors in.

I bought a pack of these connectors a few week ago and set about testing them. It didn't say WAGO on them but they looked just like it. They have all European marks plus UL and CSA, so presumably they are sold on both sides of the pond. (90°C and 2.5 mm² max.)

Tricky to get the conductor in, but there is no risk of the conductor falling out. In fact, I think it is more vibration resistant than a wirenut.

Previously I've encountered another type of push-in connector, which the wire goes in easily but unfortunately out just as easily.

But here comes the problem: How the h**l do you get the wire out? Twist back and forth and pull. Yeah, right. It goes out if you pull really hard and twist it simultanously. When I took the connector apart, the odd strand remains in the connector. If it had release buttons, like those on devices, it would have been much better than wirenuts or barrier strips.

{Goes off to invent the no-strip connector}

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-10-2003).]

C-H,

You may be stepping into something here ..

From an engineering standpoint, or personal experience, what is your opinion of the mechanical/electrical connection in these? Do you think they're reliable?

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 08-10-2003).]

Bill,

When I was in business I was a "Pre Twister" too. I didn't trust a splice unless I twisted it before I used a wire nut. As for the Wago style of connectors, I have not used them myself. ( I am out of the business of contracting and inspecting only) I am inspecting a large residential project in one of my towns where the buildings are all between 5-7 stories tall. A union contractor in one building and a non union contractor in another building are both using the Wagos because they feel that it speeds up the install time. My main concern was the fact that the NEC/UL stopped using the pin-backs on receptacles for # 12 ga but they will allow it for these connectors. They seem like they are good and worth while, but I was wondering if anyone had any complaint about them so far

Harold,

I think many of our International Members have used them which was my reason for putting the question to them.

How about it guys? Have you seen any problems with the WAGO style connector?

Bill

I have used the Ideal brand on occassion. They seemed to hold fine and have not had any call backs. I like these when someone has cut the wires too short in the box to allow the use of a wirenut.

One feature on the Wagos is the addition of a test port so that voltage can be checked with the connector in-place.

Bill,

I don't dare to say anything about the electrical performance without a suitable power source and a thermal camera.

The mechanical connection appears to be sufficient, but I would have to test it with weights to be sure.

I went to Wagos hompage and dug into the test results from Wago themselves. I picked a curved which shows the temperature rise in a 2.50 mm² wire. This is in between #14 and #12.



(S = solid, F = fine-stranded)

This test was carried out to German standards. The temperature in Germany is always a constant 25°C, at least in the standards. The maximum temperature in European cables is 70°C. This means that the wire and connector is allowed to experience a temperatur rise of 45°C in Germany.

In the US, I think the ambient temperature is a constant 30°C and as you know American wires are 60, 75 or 90°C. That means that the results should be valid for 75°C wires.

Wago only provide the tested ampacity for metric sizes. I have taken the liberty to calculate in between sizes that better correspond to AWG. (These data are from two different documents. I took the worse values which happened to be for fine stranded.)

1.5 mm² #15, 17.5 Amps, 40 Newtons
(2.0 mm² #14, 21 Amps, 50 Newtons)
2.5 mm² #13, 24 Amps, 60 Newtons
(3.15 mm² #12, 28 Amps, 75 Newtons)
4 mm² #11, 32 Amps, 90 Newtons

If you require that you can use 60°C wires, the allowed temperature rise is just 30°C. This means that the ampacity is significantly lower, but on the other hand it is significantly higher with 90°C wires. (The connectors are rated for 90°C or 105°C.)

(For metric challenged, 10 Newtons is about equal to one kilogram or two pounds)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-11-2003).]

don't mean to be thick , what does this mean yes or no ?

RE: "I don't know the reason for the #12 elimination(while still allowing #14), but the end result is good" [regarding receptacle].

Maybe someone from Canada can help out with this.... I remember hearing something about this. Supposedely Canada had stopped allowing the use of a #12 wire {stab-back] in the 15A rated receptacle....since the US manufacturers sell to the Canada market, it was simpler to just manufacture the one size receptacle (i.e. only making the #14 stab-back) rather than manufacturing separate sizes.

Like I said, this is just something I heard, read somewhere a while back...don't know the accuracy of this but someone from Canada might have a more accurate take on this.

CH said:


But C, wouldn't the no-strip splice connector be something similar to these little cheesy plugs we have in NEMA-land where you can just clamp them on and these insulation piercing points penetrate the insulation in the lamp cord?

I've got a couple here like that - it's a clam-shell that you fold over the unstripped conductors. You then close the clamshell and tighten a screw.

Then you pray that the little points bit into the insulation and made the contact with the conductors. They're usually only designed for 18-AWG SPT-1 lampcord.

They're made in China by god-only-knows-who for GE and these guys in turn sell them in blister packs of two each in the big national department stores like K-Mart and Target.

I think I'm gonna stick with screw terminals, marrettes and terminal blocks. These are proven!

Those "no strippers" are also sold as a #567 (among others) by 3M. They'll tap a #18 from a #12 run, and are used extensively here in the wiring of continuous rows of strip fixtures (much to my dismay).
Wago's?? I still don't trust them for anything more than replacing a ballast.
Just a personal opinion, though...S