The 2005 NEC will include a new requirement stating that green insulation or green with a yellow stripe are only permitted to be used for the identification of the equipment grounding conductor.





[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 05-25-2003).]

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[This message has been edited by dana1028 (edited 05-22-2003).]

The proposed wording says that any conductor "identified as permitted" in this section shall
only be used as an EGC. The use of a bare wire is permitted to identify an EGC, this will mean that bare conductors are no longer permitted to be used as grounding electrode conductors.
Don

Is there a similar proposal for white and white/red colors with grounded-circuit conductors?

The hazards seem similar to those cited by Phil Simmons for green and green/yellow.

Don:

I think that the new sentence makes it clear that the color green or green with a yellow strip will not be allowed to be used to identify the GEC.

The comment stage is where any changes proposed to the original accepted actions can be made by any person who wants to send one in.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 05-24-2003).]

What would we do with all that bare solid larger than #10?

Roger

So then an exception to the rule above may be in order"

"Exception: Grounding electrode conductors shall be permitted to be bare."

Who would this change benifit?

Joe,
You are correct that the new wording would prohibit the use of green for the grounding electrode conductor. My comment will be to "accept in principle" with the following words added at the end of the proposed wording, "or grounding electrode conductor".
Don

Why not identify the EGC with green and yellow stripes only and the GEC with green (or bare) only. Then the US would follow the international standard on the EGC identification (I don't think there is a standard for the GEC)

Don:

Sounds good and with my comment the issues are resolved??

sparky:

The substantiation will be satisfied if the change in the rule is included in the 2005 NEC.

I can't understand why it is that smaller conductor identification gained so much notoriety in the 02' while larger conductors fare poorly here.

C-H

In the area of the States I work green with yellow stripe is used for indicating isolated ground conductors.

The manufacturers of cables(green and a green with yellow stripe) and UPS equipment (at least some) also use green with yellow stripe for isolated grounds.

What do use in your area for isolated ground identification or do you even install IG conductors?

Bob

sparky:

I need more information on what you are describing.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 05-24-2003).]

Edited to stay on topic

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 05-24-2003).]

Joe,
changes in art 200.7(C)(2) had people running a 3 wire for switch loops, because of the 'permanently reidentified' line debated ad nasuem.

Now the same brewhaha is going to befall the GEC ?

it seems the CMP(s) have beat up the identification issue randomly throughout the last few code cycles.

IMO, if one has trouble identifying a GEC or switch loop, they should'nt be wearing a tool belt anyways.....

sparky: no truer words can be spoken!!
I think I saw something where a proposal called for a true neutral "white wire" in a switch. I think that's good and I would recommend it anyway.

The new 2005 cycle should be very interesting, and I will be sending in comments to support the one above too.

I think Sparky's last post speaks for alot of field electricians.

[This message has been edited by ga.sparky56 (edited 05-25-2003).]

Do you think that the code panel will allow the use of green for the grounding electrode conductor if this proposal is accepted?

Seems to me that it will not, and the issue and case is closed concerning the long winded remarks by more than one person here a few months ago.

I could not find that thread, and if anyone knows where it is kindly post the link here, or was it deleted by the Moderator??

iwire:

Isn't that why two EGC's are included in certain types of MC Cable, one is "Green" and the other is "Green with a Yellow Stripe?"

You are correct, we don't need to use the green with the yellow stripe for the GEC identification.


[This message has been edited by pseudonym (edited 05-25-2003).]

The CMP will need to change their mindset on the identification of the GEC.

See 1992 TCR proposal 5-206 on page 176.

We may not have access to that Glenn, what 'did' they say?

I have a hard time believing a CMP would entertain this obvious shortcut;

Can someone please tell me or give me a reason why everything to do with grounding or bonding including the GEC should not be allowed to be green or bare.

As Sparky points out, anybody that would not know the difference is more of a danger concerning other things, than not identifying a GEC correctly.

The time debated over indentifying different parts of a grounding and bonding system could be better spent elsewhere. IMHO

Roger

What was the committee's response to this submittal? I sure didn't pick up on the possibality of affecting the GEC.

I'm sure Phil did not mean for this article to affect the GEC articles. For the reasons he states, it is a good change.

Hopefully someone on the committee had the same insight that Joe, and others here, had about how this would affect the GEC. If not, then this is where one should make a comment on the proposals, which, I would think, is an option available to anyone here who wishes to.

Anyone know of the timeline for comments?

Rick Miell

[This message has been edited by rmiell (edited 05-25-2003).]

Thanks Glenn:

Here's your proposal.



Rick" Here is the schedule:

iwire,

I didn't think of that... It was just an idea. As I'm not in the United States, I'm not entitled to have an opinion on the NEC, really.

Well the same could be said for me C-H, but......

I second Roger's comment. Why not just specify that all grounding & bonding be green and that green shall not be used for any other purpose? That seems to be the logical approach to me.

Paul, you are familiar enough with the NEC to know that wouldn't be confusing enough to make it into the codebook !

“The proposed wording says that any conductor "identified as permitted" in this section shall only be used as an EGC. The use of a bare wire is permitted to identify an EGC, this will mean that bare conductors are no longer permitted to be used as grounding electrode conductors.”

I will disagree.

1) A completely bare conductor is not “identified” as in 250.119 A or B. They are referring to insulated conductors that are stripped bare for the entire EXPOSED length. To identify something you have to do something to it.

2) Nothing in the substantiation points to this. The intent is if it’s green or green w/ yellow stripe – it’s an EGC only.


[This message has been edited by engy (edited 06-06-2003).]