Any additional info here appreciated......

The exception is not very likely to apply here since, generally speaking, paralled conductors must be 1/0 AWG or larger.

Unless you're dealing with some of the exceptions to the paralled conductor rule (unlikey) I don't know why this would come up.

All the fine print on those little labels inside the cabinet need to be read to see if any of the terminals are in fact listed for two conductors.

Sparky,

Sounds like to me that you need one neutral per terminal. It also sounds like someone needs to go out a grounding bar terminal so that they can install the grounding wires. ( In this case they can install 2-3 wires of the same size under one terminal as per the manufactures instructions.)

Harold

This panel is made for the average installation which will have some 240v loads on two pole breakers where two spaces only require one neutral connection. In the event that you wanted to use only single pole breakers in the panel you must stop at 24 breakers. Your other choice is to use some multi wire circuits that share the neutral connection. There is usually more than one way to get from point A to point B. What was your reason for needing the exception?

All,
This panel holds 30 circuits, it has a right & left termination strip of 24 terminations each.
The two bars connect by way of the typical connecting piece that we all remove to have an isolated nuetral bar.

So we are left with a 24 termination bar, not counting larger lug for feeder.....note it comes short of 24 screws, i had to 'borrow' from the grounding bar, being allowed to double up there......

I put 28 circuits into this yesterday, i use very few multiwire circuits due to the # of AFCI's my state requires...

I see NO reason for something marketed as a 30 circuit panel to become uncompliant to the NEC here, sorry folks.....

If the D**m thing is sold as 30 circuit, it should hold 30 circuits, i should not need to search for accessories to make this happen.

the only accesory i see is an IG21 Here in the Siemens page

It really pisses me off to see manufactures stand on the code to promote what they wish, then ignore the finer points when it is convient for them to do so.....

The finer points like 110.3(B). I have not seen this panels instruction sheet but, I doubt it shows you how to use half of the neutral assembly as a ground bar. If the panel does not come with a ground bar, you are required to furnish one (and not necessarily the isolated one) to use it as a subpanel. You are way ahead of far to many installers as you seem to know the requirements for grounding the subpanel.

I think Virgil mentioned that GE's instructions say you can remove the bar between the 2 neutral busses in their load centers but I don't use GE and have never seen this in any other manufactures instructions. Every loadcenter has a listing for ad on equipment ground bars. The neutral gets bonded through the optional screw that gets installed through the buss into the enclosure so there is no reason to separate these busses. Use both busses for neutrals and ad an additional buss for your equipment grounds.

Curt

yes i can buy a G-bar, no i don't believe i should have to.....i don't think another 6 terminations is much to ask here .

it should have the versitality to be able to sub out.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 12-22-2002).]

Does Siemens specifically say in their instructions that you CAN remove the bar between the 2 neutral busses and use one buss for neutral connections and the other for equipment ground connections? If not I don't think you really have a choice since removing the bar would void the UL listing of the loadcenter.

Now this is just personal opinion but I always install a 2 ground busses (one on each side). Making up the panel is quick and looks much better without all of the equipment grounds and neutrals crossing at the top and bottom.

Curt

well Curt,
i can't seem to located the correct listing here, it would seem a readily removable bar to me, but i've been wrong before.....

it just s***s realizing i may have been wrong for many moons.


Steve aka~(crow for din-din again) sparky

Selling elec stock at a supply house way back in the 80s. I had to ask the purchaser if they planned on using it for a sub panel, then sell them an addition ground bar kit. I use to remove the connecting bar on panels myself to isolate, my understanding is this removal exempts the panel from it's original equipment and becomes void. I believe that's why there's threaded holes for placement of a gnd bar. I can understand why this would upset someone that it's not more deversafied, but if the panel manufacturer added a ground bar kit with every panel it would be more expensive, and it wouldn't always be used, so then the constumer would be upset for paying more for something they don't need. Personally, I purchased several different size ground bar kits for 2 or 3 different panel type, kept them in my truck. Became usefull for sub panels also for adding on to existing panels. Just my humble opinion, hope it helps.

~Ange

Sparky
I use the add on ground bars in those panels for the sheer convenience of not having to route one conductor of each circuit to the other side of the panel. What that panel is sold as is convertible service equipment. When used as service equipment it has forty eight terminations. That's thirty two neutrals and thirty two EGCs with two EGCs per hole. In order to convert this panel you add the ground bars. SqaureD is now including the ground bars in there MLO panels but they are still an optional extra in their main breaker panels.
--
Tom

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 12-22-2002).]

ok, so now i'm packing GB10 G-bars in my truck, not a big to-do.

i still say it's like buying a new truck & finding that the wheels are extra.

Don't laugh, I bought a truck in 88, found out it didn't come with a rear bumper.

Hey Steve

I wasn't trying to pick on you above. I have always felt the manufactures should include ground bars with their loadcenters. Since a main breaker loadcenters are usually used for services I can see why they might not include them but out here on the west coast we use combination service entrance devices for residential services. Most supply houses only stock main lug loadcenters since they will me used as a sub panels. What good is a 40 circuit main lug loadcenter without a ground buss?

Curt

naw, your educating me Curt(et all), no prob.

i guess G-bars will be included in my New Years resolution.......