An existing drinking water fountain, or cooler is sometimes confusing to those who are not familiar with the NEC where they call for GFCI protection.

We know that 680.2 definition of a fountain does not include a "drinking fountain".

So what gives the right to a Safety Officier to mandate that they be GFCI protected on a government facility?



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-17-2002).]

Authority having Jurisdiction.

Qualified answer? Does a government facility fall under the NEC? Would this be an OSHA requirement? If strictly an NEC issue I would say the safety officer would have no right to require something such as this.

Please explain what this means? See 90.4.

Electricmanscott:

I agree, and thought that the safety officier didn't have an NEC rule to cite.

What I mean when I ask for a "qualified answer" is a reply that gives an opinion such as yours.

I like to discuss the subjects that I post so that I can help with the questions that are asked of me "real time".

I expect that some of my students will join ECN, especially when they find out that their questions can be answered on this bulletin board.

Thanks

My Understanding of the AHJ, the person or body that decides how the code(s) will be applied to a specific case. The final say in how certain code(s) get applied in their area of responsibility. The AHJ opinions must have some basis in fact and cannot be pulled out of thin air



[This message has been edited by walrus (edited 10-15-2002).]

walrus:

That's what I thought you were thinking.

I also agree that the AHJ cannot, and should not pull or develop rules out of the thin air.

Joe,

Is this "Goverment" facility fall under Federal laws? Or maybe state rules? Here in NJ, the municiple inspector has no jurisdition with state or fed. buildings. Unless someone else owns the building. For example, if the Dept. of Motor Vehicle rents space in a local store front, then we would inspect the building. If it is a train station or post office, we are hands off.

Caper

Joe:
The NEC is the "minimum" standards required for electrical installations; correct?
We as inspectors are mandated to enforce the NEC.
We as contractors are mandated to perform our installations to the NEC, as MINIMUM standards.

WE as contractors CAN exceed the NEC requirements; correct???
WE as inspectors CANNOT mandate standards that exceed the NEC; correct??

The "Safety Officer", may have the jurisdiction to mandate GFI's if he is not stating "they are required by the NEC".
Engineers and architects can specify installations that exceed the NEC; wire size, pipe size, "spec" devices; GFI's all over, etc.

The above is my humble opinion, as an electrical inspector, and an electrical contractor. (NJ licenses)
John

Joe, the term "safety officer" should be clarified.

Is this an individual such as a Home Inspector, where some are very knowledgeable and others are not, and maybe this person is the latter interpreting something wrong.

I know this may not be a qualified answer, but we know this is not a NEC requirement.

If this is an in house issue where he is employed, so be it, but I'm not aware of any codes that would require it.

Roger

Joe,

Could the "GFCI required 6' from sink" myth be rearing it's ugly head here?

Just a thought.

The "Safety Officier" is responsible for many coast guard government sites, and they use the NEC.

There are no amendments requiring a GFCI for a drinking water fountain.

I believe we can safely say that the NEC does not require this protection.

i suspect a goverment contractor with $169 GFI's.....not all decisions are made on the premis of safety.

I agree with Sparkey. I've seen many instances where the safety person needs to justify their existance and will generate paper to do just that.

"Water Fountain Inspector" was a cush assignment for this person, until he ran up against you Joe.

Unfortunately the government has people in positions to make the rules up as they go. In this instance, it is a matter of someone thinking that since water is involved, as with most nonelectrical types automatically "GFCI". No one ever thinks that the motor could cause nuisance tripping or that the receptacle may be covered by the front cover or the water fountain and is a real pain to reset whenever there is a nuisance trip. My advice (as an electrical engineering technician for the US Army Corps of Engineers) is to have them give you something in writing that backs their claim that the GFI rec.s are required. Make them prove it by code. I guarantee that the safety officer is not the AHJ on any government installation.

Gentlemen:
Am I missing something here?????

Did Anyone read thru my reply above???

Am I wrong?, or can someone specify something that is "above" the NEC???

Yes, the motor may cause nusiance trips, yes, it can be a pain in the butt to reset it if it's "inside" the cooler, but if it's in the spec, and it's NEC compliant or BETTER then why can't he (Safety Officer) have it???

YES, IF HE says "IT'S NEC REQUIRED" then he is stone wrong!!
John