Help!!
I'm in the process of selling my home (permitted in 1984, and finaled in 1985)located in Phoenix AZ. My buyer's home inspector wants me to install GFI circuits in the kitchen and garage.
My question is " When were GFIs for these locations adapted by the NEC/UBC and when did City Inspectors start enforcing this??

I was not the original owner, I purchased the home in 1996, so this was a pre-existing scenario. Do I have to fix this?
Thanks for any guidence, Erik

I've had to in the past.

Didn't figure it was worth arguing over,
with GFCI's so cheap.

My experience shows that if the home inspector finds issues the buyer will look for a free fix. Under the NEC you have no obligation whatsoever to fix this. Weather or not there are local issues concerning this I don't know. If this is all it takes to get the sale done I would likely do it. If this is a case of the buyer trying to squeeze you for anything they can I would tell them take it as is or walk.

my 84' HB states in 210-8 that bathrooms, grarges & outdoor receptacles be GFI.

Erik,

Unless some one is from your city, then I don't think that anyone can help you. Now let me explain. Here in NJ, A home inspector can not make a seller bring his home up to the modern electrical code. However there may be a city law which states that certain things must be met in order to sell a home. For example, the smoke detectors must be wired and in operating condition, there must be GFCI receptacles in the kitchen, etc. This must be a law and on the town/city laws. I would call the city and ask them if there is a law that makes you bring the home up to code. Then ask for a copy of that law. Let your lawyers review it to make sure that it is a legal law. I have had many home inspectors try to make me bring old houses up to code. Now don't get me wrong, bringing an old home up to code is not a bad thing. It is actually rather good. However the new homeowner must be aware that they are buying a home that needs some work, and that they will bring the house up to the modern codes.

from my understanding the only time you would need to fix something like that is if the people buying your house are going FHA they are alot stricker on things like that.

House... $250,000
GFI outlet $7.00
Leaving the closing table... Priceless...

Just put it in.

[This message has been edited by tsolanto (edited 10-02-2002).]

I do a lot of real-estate work. And it is increasing due to the increasing popularity of Homie Inspection Services.
The original purpose of these services was to warn of any serious structural damage of impending failure of mechanical systems. However it has evolved into an exhaustive inspection, which includes many unnecessary (nit-picking) recommendations. This helps inflate the cost of the inspection and justify the expense. (I personally have seen the average cost of recomended electrical repairs rise from $100-200.00 to over $500.00 in the course of 3 years.) However, some of the buyers are expecting to buy a 30 year old house in brand new condition. Remember that any recommended repairs are negotiable, but as tsolanto said, don't let the deal fall through for a few (or even several hundred) dollars worth of electrical work

Home inspectors and cities can not force a seller to comply with any building code.

The purpose of a home inspector is to advise the purchaser as to what he believes is not up to some unspecified standard.

The purchaser has the right to negotiate or walk away. The seller has the right to negotiate or walk away. Personally, as a seller I would never fix any "defect" nor would I lower my price based on the "defects". The house is sold as is where is.

Cities never have a right of inspection at the time of sale only when work requiring a permit is performed.

George:
Some cities/twp's etc., here in NJ have a CCO (Continued Certificate of Occupancy) requirement; it applies to commercial and residential properties in most locales. At or before the change in ownership/occupancy an inspection is required. Electric, Plumbing, Fire, Building, Etc. A fee is charged for the CCO application. The inspections are non-invasive, visual. Any blatant violations are cited and required to be repaired. Yes, the repairs have to be "Permitted" and inspected. Repairs can be made by the homeowner, or a contractor, but a Permit is required.

Further details of this can be discussed here or by e-mail.

John

John ---

You are correct that some juristictians have "requirements" for inspections at the time of sale.

I hope those inspections for a transfer of ownership not change of use are simply to insure that no unpermitted work was done and to recommend not order that work (like adding CFGI's or smoke detectors) be done.

In any case you negotiate with the seller, and who pays and what is done is resolved in the final paperwork.

Almost all of the home inspectors here are hired by the real estate companies. Typically a FHA/VA loan requires this inspection. Most of these inspector around here took a short course and now know everything just ask them. Many of them condem two wire outlets in 35+ year old homes, always want GFCI within 6' of water, want sump pump single outlets changed to GFCI, demand conduit in unfinished basements drilled thru the studs or floor joists, and always will condem a fuse panel.
I have yet to meet any one of them who ever built a house in any trade.
But since the bankers rely on them, upgrading if not too costly is worth while.
Have any work done by a licensed contractor, some times the contractor can give you a statement of his inspection and repairs (if any) on your place. If some work is not required by local code he can supply the reference.
I just wish we could get some licensing requirements with actual work experience on these so-called inspectors.
Gool luck in the sale of your place.

If you decide to install the gfci`s you may want to change the breaker feeding the circuits now with a gfci breaker .Yes this will cost a little more but if the breaker that now exist cuts off all the outlets you`d be asured to have it all protected.This would be better for kitchen depends on the layout of circuits.In garage maybe change to gfci rec. Most of the time here in NC we`ll do these things for the realty company as the loan provider is protecting their investment as well...

George:
The "inspections" are visual, and we primarily look for life/safety items. Recently found a garage door opener that was wired with "zip cord" that had sta-kons onto the cord cap on the opener; the "zip cord" was tapped off of one leg of the 30 amp dryer outlet, fed a receptacle in a handi-box, and was free air spliced. All of this was secured by 1 staple and some duct tape.
The building dept looks for un-permitted work that was done in the past. The Fire Official checks for smoke detectors. The GFI situation is "suggested", not mandatory.
PS: I do electrical inspections for the Twp, I'm not a House Inspector.
John

nesparky,

There are several home inspectors in my area who have built more than a few houses. I oeversaw the building of my own home and have done quite a bit of electrical on new and old homes (I'm an electrician and home inspector).
A home inspector should never cite code unless he is certified as a code official.
Yes, all of the states need to require laws that insure a home inspector knows what he is doing. The problem is that (there are currently 25 states that require experience and/or training)many of the states that have passed laws, have put the home inspector under the jurisdiction of the Real Estate Board or Commission and the HI Associations that are out there either can't work together or agree to this blatant conflict of interest. There are many of us (mostly the old electricians, contractors and building officials) who are advocating; 1)Home inspectors should come under the state entity that governs tradesmen (electricians, plumbers, contractors, etc), this will better insure knowledge, training and experience and get them out of bed with the real estate agents; 2)Not allow the real estate agents to refer buyers to home inspectors; 3)Not allow the home inspectors to solicit real estate agents (I do advertising that targets the buyer, but will not solicit agents).
One thing that needs to be done is for the trades to work with the states and local jurisdictions and the home inspectors to get these laws passed.
I for one am tired of the government butting into my business. But, to protect the public and stop some of the BS write ups, we need these laws.
Bob

John,

Here in northern NJ, we only give the CCO's to commercial property not the residentials. Even so, not all towns give CCO's, out of 4 towns that I work for, only 2 have CCO's.

Interesting Link here to ASHI, portarying the HI criterior in about 1/2 the states.

The obvious differences are apparent, as some states require credentials ,continuing ed, liability insurance, etc.

The states not listed (like mine) , have much litigation surrounding individual HI's .....
.... wag the dog