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Posted By: harold endean Kitchen? - 08/27/02 02:05 AM
A good friend of mine asked me a question and I didn't have an answer. What do you guys think? What defines a kitchen? The reason is that my friend was wiring a basement and the was going to be some cabinents,contertop and a sink. No big deal. It would be a wet bar. So far so good. Then came a small refrig. under the countertop. Next came a dishwasher. My friend called for inspection. Now the inspector failed him. Why? The inspector called this area a "kitchen". Therefore he needed 3 more outlets on the countertop. This way he could meet the 2'-4' rule. My friend said that there were no means of cooking. The AHJ said that you could add a microwave, therefore it is a kitchen. Any comments?

Harold
Posted By: sparky Re: Kitchen? - 08/27/02 11:36 AM
Harold,

to add a little spice to your thread....

I have a 12V 'hot dish' in my van
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 12:19 AM
This is a good one. I recently wired a billiard room in a house. The room had counter,fridge, and sink. I treated it simply as a wet bar, which is exactly what it is. Passed inspection. I think the inspector is going a bit far here. There are many "What ifs" we see everyday.
Posted By: Gwz Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 01:14 AM
I see that Indiana has added KITCHEN to Article 100.

Kitchen means an area used, or designated to be used, for the preparation of food.


Maybe two more words need to be added for clarity " or drink."

Or maybe change the word " food" to "nourishment".
Posted By: caselec Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 01:30 AM
We have been wiring quite a few pool houses lately and they usually have a dishwasher, disposal, and microwave. The inspectors will not permit the installation of an oven or cooktop because they would consider it a second kitchen.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 02:46 AM
I think that the inspector is reading too much into this installation. I don't believe he should have called it a kitchen. It should have been called a wet bar. In our code book the definition of a "bathroom means that you need a basin and one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub,or a shower." Maybe a code change should read: The definition of a kitchen you need a stove/cooktop/range/oven and one or more of the following, a sink, a refrigerator, or a dishwasher. I want to send in a code change but I just have to think about how to write it.
Posted By: Joule-E Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 04:28 AM
A location for the preperation of items for human (or animal) consumption by mouth. That would cover anything we eat or drink, or feed our dogs.

Then again, I drink from a hose outside now and then, so my back yard would be a kitchen...its got a BarBQue too.
Posted By: TE Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 05:54 AM
Joule-E do we need mouth in the definition
I'd hate to think what they're doing to the food. Do we need a health dept inspection?

Straight from the dictionary- a room with cooking facilities. I don't buy your inspectors comment that you could add a stove. I could add a stove to my bedroom, a microwave in my closet.

House for sale: 7 kitchens/ 1 bath, could be easily converted to 8 kitchens. Great retirement home for a chef. Open house Saturday- free snacks in every room.

Webster's Dictionary
Main Entry: kitch·en
Pronunciation: 'ki-ch&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English kichene, from Old English cycene, from Late Latin coquina, from Latin coquere to cook
Date: before 12th century
1 : a place (as a room) with cooking facilities
2 : the personnel that prepares, cooks, and serves food
Posted By: TE Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 06:16 AM
Additional comments
I am thinking out loud here.

If there is plentiful counter space in a situation like this. Would homeowner install
a plug strip to plug in his blender, toaster oven and 10 other appliances?

But, would he be running those all at the same time?

I guess that would depend on the margarita output of the blender.

I vote on the side of safety.. wire it to the kitchen requirement. A couple of outlets are cheap in retrospect. He can get a change order= more$$$. And it will enhance his future relationship with the inspector.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 10:15 AM
TE by your own definition this is NOT a kitchen. I will say it again, we can not cover every "what if" when doing a job. And not everyone wants to pay for every possible thing that may or may not happen.
Posted By: sparky Re: Kitchen? - 08/28/02 10:22 PM
maybe we should ask a chef?


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 08-28-2002).]
Posted By: watthead Re: Kitchen? - 08/29/02 01:05 AM
You will also need a couple more circuits at this location. Two small appliance circuits and someone might wash a shirt in the dishwasher, so a laundry circuit as well. Just incase that same inspector comes back.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Kitchen? - 08/29/02 10:16 PM
Might want to dry the shirt too. Dryer circuit! Hey suppose they want to bake some cookies in there. Range circuit!
Posted By: pauluk Re: Kitchen? - 08/29/02 11:10 PM
Somnebody might just decide to take a snooze down there and turn it into a bedroom. Better make them all on AFCIs while you're about it!

(Uh oh..... [Linked Image])
Posted By: George Re: Kitchen? - 09/10/02 12:51 AM
You have to realize that the code (excluding ampacity) is mostly garbage.

If you build furniture that looks a lot like cabinets with counter tops on the bottom, a nice backsplash, and more cabinets on the top with a built in sink, range, and refrig, I could suggest that no recepts are needed. I am sure most inspectors would disagree. Courts might be split.

It is a good idea to put recepts in in your situation.
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Kitchen? - 09/10/02 02:38 AM
Kitchen. An area designated for storage, preparation, cooking, and serving of food for members.
Posted By: C.Urch Re: Kitchen? - 09/10/02 11:29 AM
Inspectors here would not consider this a kitchen. In order to be classified as kitchen as opposed to a wet bar/entertainment area, a 240 volt outlet for a range would have to be present or a gas or propane line for a range.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Kitchen? - 09/13/02 02:02 AM
I agree that you must have a means of cooking in order to classify an area as a "kitchen". However what if, there is a cooktop, but no sink? Or no refrigerator? Would it then be a kitchen?
Posted By: sparky Re: Kitchen? - 09/13/02 10:58 PM
hmmm,
does anyone remember how 'sink' became the defining point of 'bathroom' ?

perhaps kitchens should follow suit?
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