I just met a GC from San Diego that is going to expand/renovate a friends' house here in NY (LI). I will be doing the work which will likely amount to a complete rewire. During discussion of what has to be done by code (NY) and what they want done some interesting expectations came up. I was told it is common in CA to have a Meter/Main Panelboard installed outside the house and that it is recessed into the exterior wall. This includes the conduit mast above the meter. (it is inside wall) He said that the only thing exposed is 18" of mast above the roof for the point of attachment and the weatherhead. Can anyone confirm this? I don't think this would be permitted in NY.

Also, on receptacle placement he cites a "six foot rule" for spacing. He confirmed that it means an outlet every six feet and said it is the code out there. Is that a fact, or is he misunderstanding something?

As you might expect I would like to make sure that we are all on the same page and I know what everyone's expectations are. Working for friends is sometimes a chancy thing.

Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-13-2002).]

Bill

I am in Northern CA and what you described is pretty much the normal for all of the areas in the state I have worked in. We usually install a flush panel that has a meter socket, main breaker and a 24 or 40 circuit distribution panel. All of the manufactures make panels like this. A common one used is a Square D SC2040M200C. If overhead service is used then the mast usually needs to be at least 30" above the roof. The drop should be attached a minimum of 18" above the roof and most electric utility's require 12" between the point of attachment and the weather head (I know this is a PG&E requirement but not sure if its a EUSERC requirement). Please feel free to ask any other questions about this type of installation.

Curt

Curt,

Thanks for the response. What I was surprised to hear was about the mast being inside the wall. The norm here is surface-mounted equipment (never saw anything flush-mounted on the outside of a house) and an exposed mast that is visible for its entire length except if it must pass through a soffit. If the service mast is inside the wall isn't that considered inside the house?

What about the six-foot rule?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,
A flush mounted meter/main combo with service conduit in the wall has been pretty common out here for quite some time. Although my house is underground I live in an area where over head services are still installed a lot. If I didn't leave my camera at work I would take a few PICS for you. (That and find a house where they wouldn't come out with a gun because I am taking pictures of there house for no particular reason ) As far as the six foot rule for receptacles goes I think he has misinterpreted the code section. I don't know of any areas around here that have any amendments like that.

Nick,

Nice to see you around!
The more I think about it the less strange it seems. This would only be permitted if there was a main outside, right?

Is RMC required for this? or are other methods allowed? SEU?

Please forgive my ignorance here. An outside main is not very common here at all except if required for some reason. I have never seen an outside Panelboard anywhere in NY at all. I've seen some in FL but they were surface-mounted.


Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-13-2002).]

Bill,

I'm in Northern California, and have lived in Southern Calif. Here, if it's an overhead supply and new construction, the riser is always in the wall. Retrofits are usually surface-mounted w/the pipe strapped to the wall.

The service entrance panel (all-in-one) is sometimes installed semi-flush, with about 4" of panel outside the wall. The bottom of the panel outside the wall has a couple of KOs in it, and boy does that make it easy to add a circuit later--just surface mount the conduit.

The riser must be GRC, min. diameter 1.5 inch in my area. For a 200A service and copper SECs, 2 inch min. This doesn't leave much of a two-by-four top plate, but most people are using two-by-sixs for exterior walls.

I have never seen SE cable out here, even for surface-mounted panels. It's always pipe.

As far as why we don't use meterbase or metermain and interior panel, I think there are two reasons we use SEPs instead: moderate temps/little snow, and NO basement or mud rooms, so no good place to mount an interior panel. We don't have to out in the winter to check the panel in two feet of snow and below zero temps!

As far as no good place to put an interior main panel, most older (pre-WWII) houses have a small entry inside the back door (service porch or laundry room), but it is small. And w/windows and cabinets/cupboards, there isn't usually enough wall space to mount a main panel. Newer houses usually have laundry room in the core of the house, or in an attached garage. It would be possible to install a meter base outside and a main panel in the garage, but I just don't think it's done.

I have a question for you all in the east where meter bases are used and the OCPD/main cutoff is at the panel inside the house--doesn't it matter to the Fire Dept. that there's no main cutoff accessible from the outside of the building? Is it mainly a cost issue? Some firefighters mistakenly think that they can pull the meter to disconnect power, but I've heard of firefighters who tried that under a short circuit/ground fault condition and got the suprise of their lives when the arc blew them across the yard (fortunately not seriously injured)!

Why don't you install a meter base and cutoff or metermain putside, and then a MLO panel back-to back (or w/in 10 feet)? BTW, my AHJ has a supplementary code requirement that limits the 10 foot tap rule to 5 feet (before main OCPD). Is this common elsewhere?

Sorry to hijack the thread Bill, but these differences have been buggin' me for a while...

Cliff

Cliff

Cliff,

Thanks for the info. As far as the why goes, maybe someone else can help with that. We generally must have a main OCPD within 5 feet of where the service conductors enter the house or must provide one outside. They will sometimes make some allowances depending on circumstances if it is well protected.

As far as the service conductors above the meter go they will balk at any part being hidden from view or enclosed in the building finish. I think that part of this is for fear that someone will tap into it before the meter. I have seen where this was done. A customer of mine bought a house from a utility employee some years ago. Where the service cable (SEU) passed through a 12 inch soffit the previous owner had tapped into it and soldered 40A fuses to the wires and continued to his Electric Stove. This was a 'Flying Splice' in the attic that I wish I could've caught on film. Though disconnected now, I think it is still there.

You say that you have a 5 foot rule before OCPD? Is this in addition to the 10 feet that's in the riser already? That would make 15 if I'm understanding correctly

Bill

Bill,

Well, my recollection was wrong--the city ordnance reads like this:

"Service entrance Conductors not having overcurrent protection prior to entering a building or structure on the property served shall not exceed 10 feet in length after entering the building or structure."

It's not an issue for residential installations, as it's all service entrance panels with the main OCPD (and the branch CBs too) outside the house.

Hoo-boy, that flying splice sounds scary. We had a case locally where some guy on the board of directors of a local suburban/rural utility company was caught stealing power at his home, bypassing the meter. That cut his political career short!

And back to your original post, the 6'/12' rule, straight from the National Code, is what's used locally. But there are a few areas whree my AHJ is a little tighter than the NEC; for instance, my AHJ requires one 15A general lighting circuit for 500 SF in service calcs (instead of 600 SF derived from the 3VA/SF general lighting load table).

Cliff

Thanks Bill!
Yes, rigid metal conduit is required for risers here. For the past 20 or so years the utility here (Southern California Edison) has required service panels to be on the front side of the house. In 99.9% of the homes going in these days that translates to flush mount facing outside in the garage wall. All meters and mains are outside. Underground services are done in PVC. Other that that I haven't seen any other wiring methods used for residential services here.

Bill I know of people who interpret the NEC receptacle requirements to mean one every six feet. It seems pretty clear to me however. I don't know about in Cali though. Every six feet seems rather excessive.

Hey Bill

Sorry I did not get back to you about the 6' rule. California follows the NEC for residential receptacle spacing but it is possible San Diego has a local amendment that requires receptacles more often but I doubt it. As Electricmanscott some people have a hard time understanding what the NEC means by requiring no point along the floor line farther that 6' from a receptacle but I think all of us here know that this means one receptacle every 12'.

Curt

Bill, I was in San diego until 2 years ago, the standard was at that time 1 outlet every 12' I think the GC maybe mis-interpreting the 6' rule.
Wirewiz

Thanks for all the replies. Electure (Scott) has sent along a photo to illustrate the type of all-in-one that is common out in CA.

Thank You Scott!

We use something similair around here on REC(rural homes), there is a main and usually breakers for the well and several outbuildings.

Here on the sc coast, and we are basically at sea level, nema 3 rated devices just dont cut it with the salt air.I have changed many meter guts due to corrosion from salt. Imagine what the service calls would be like if the load centers's were outside.They are however starting to require main discos. on the outside for fire reasons, that SER cable aint cheap..
As for the 6 foot rule; my understanding is that along any interior wall there should be no more than a 6 foot difference at any point along the floor between receptales.Most lamps or appliances have a 6 foot whip, so if you are 12 feet between recepts. you can plug them in without the use of an extension cord, anywhere between the plugs.

I think we New Yorkers may be too paranoid to put mains outside the house.

Bill

I gotta’ toss in this bit of gossip on salt air and electrical stuff—in Newport, central-coast Oregon, the utility hangs overhead transformers in real gnarley stainless-steel cans. They are cool! {...and apparently not all that pricey.} [Good Job, Steve.]

Here's another picture and info sent to me:
Thanks Curt!

Go here https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000161.html for some pics of what the all-in-one looks like from behind. These are bad examples of workmanship but you get the idea of how conduit and circuits enter.

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 08-21-2002).]

OK I know this is an old topic but Bill was nice to steer me here when he saw my amazement as an easterner at this CA service method.

It was all very interesting and I have some questions if the person that submitted the pictures of the surface mounted 5 gang meter stack is still around.

First it looks like less than 200 amps for 4 meters isn't this a bit small?

And Same meter stack is that mast complete?

One 2 hole strap into the trim board to hold a service drop?

iwire --still around

1. actually this was an upgrade to 5 meters (4 units + 'house' electrical)...the total load on this 3-plex + front house + laundry room was around 75A!...I forget the calcs but none of these units had anything electrical besides the general lighting/recep load + one washer/dryer that was added (5th meter).

2. "and same meter stack, is that mast complete"?.....not sure what you're asking, yes the mast was complete...just waiting for Poco to hook up...in that photo the new mast was hooked up to the utility drop at the original (abandoned) mast.

3. that 2-hole strap was reinforced with blocking between the rafters behind the 2x facia using 3/8" x 4-1/2" lags (the interior wall was open to the rafters....our Poco requires 3/8 x 3" minimum and only a 2x4 to secure)...BTW - that 'trim' board is 2x material secured every 16"

Thanks for the reply.

That was a lot of gear to buy for 75 amps!

But if you need 5 meters what are you going to do.

The question on the one strap was because around here the POCO would ask for at least two connections to the building.

They would not consider the hub a support.

Interior service mast used to be normal in the Washington, DC area. I find them on existing buildings all the time but they are no longer installed here and I don't know when the practice changed.
--
Tom