Can a switch be within reach of a shower door/curtain?

Sparky,
The code only says it can't be in the shower space. It is permitted to be within reach.
Don(resqcapt19)

A rare case of our "code" being stricter than the NEC!

No switch here is allowed to be within reach of anyone in a bath or shower, unless it's a ceiling-mounted cord pull type.

'66 has a pic on his site of a switch within easy reach of someone in the tub.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 05-15-2002).]

Paul, the pic you speak of was presented in a thread here as well.

Click Here!

What about sconce lights?

I've actually installed a pair of sconces in the tub space in the last two houses I've wired. It was in the plans, and I can't find anything in the NEC to prevent it. They are on GFCI protection, however.

'66
Actually there is a code reference for your sconces actually not the sconces but in reference to :

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A).

.. So the sconces are ok, as far as I cant tell as long as it does not exceed 50 %(210-23)..

-Mark-

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a sconce light? (I seem to be lost mid-Atlantic in terminology again!)

Virgil,
Completely off-topic....
Loved reading your happy/sad story about Murphy. I adore cats myself, and I know the feelings you go through when you loose such a friend.

Paul,
it's generally considered a fixture ( luminare) that mounts to the wall instead of the cieling.....


there would seem a bit of confusion ( mostly on my part) as to the 'shower space' which is 8' above and 3' surrounding the tub rim, as opposed to the space within the shower itself.

Thanks Paul, up to 6 dogs and 7 cats now, the pets section on my web site needs updated...

Dern critters are eatin' me out of house and home!

But I love 'em all...

Another sconce link...
http://www.anotherplanetlighting.com/section.asp?section=Sconces

Wow, that's some managerie Virgil! Only one cat here at the moment; rescued him as a kitten in Ireland about 3 years ago. Lost another after nearly 9 years to a heart defect -- It's so heartbreaking.

I guess I should have looked up "sconce" in the dictionary before. According to my Concise Oxford version:


O.K., I live and learn. It makes sense now.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 05-17-2002).]

Ok, I'm bad, I don't have my code book with me...but isn't there some language against having a bracket type light fixture above bath tubs or in shower stalls? I think the same section disallows any sort of hanging light too.

Sorry, this is still from the '99 NEC:

410-4(d) states that "No parts of cord connected fixtures, hanging fixtures, lighting track, pendants or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 3 ft. horizontally and 8 ft. vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold..."

410-57(c) states that "A receptacle shall not be installed within a tub or shower space..." which I'm left to assume "space" is defined above in 410-4(d),

630-41(c) states that "Switches shall be located at least 5 ft., measured horizontally, from the inside walls of the spa or hot tub..."

550-8(f)(1) "Shower or Bathtub Space Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in or within reach (30 inches) of a shower or bathtub space."

Any differnce in the 2002?

My 2002 book is in the truck and my feet are killing me after two 13 hour days... (Excuses, excuses...)

Paul, yes, is it a real zoo here in every sense of the word!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-17-2002).]

Virgil et all;
no real 02' changes, it would seem that as long as your absconsa* is not "cord connected" , or "hanging" , or "pendant" that they are kosher within the 8x3 area.

This is interesting in that it would not be required to be GFI protected , and the others mentioned (410-4(d))would notqualify even if they were GFI protected....

* maybe we'd make more $$$ speaking latin?

BTW, my cats earn thier keep re;mouse patrol

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 05-18-2002).]

Virgil,

An outsider's view of these quoted rules.

410-57(c). Reading that one, I would go along with your interpretation, as the only other way to read it that I can see is to just prohibit the installation of a receptacle inside the tub or shower-stall itself. And nobody could be THAT stupid, right?

Then:

So if we assume that "shower or bathtub space" is defined as an area extending 3 ft. horizontally from the tub, then logically this means that no receptacle should be within 3 ft. + 30 in. or 5' 6" of the tub.

This seems to be more in line with the 5' for switches quoted in 630-41(c), but why is the latter rule restricted to "spa or hot tub" and not tubs, showers, etc. in general?

Have I missed something?

Also, the wording of 550-8(f)(1) seems rather clumsy to me. Why not just "Receptacle outlets shall not be installed....." ?

Sparky,
Not too many mices (as Mr. Jinks would have said!) around here, but my house backs onto sand dunes with long grass. Now the weather is warming up I get regular presents of sand lizards!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 05-18-2002).]

Paul,
You wouldn't think that anyone would be that stupid, but as I recall, the substatiation for the proposal was "there is no code rule preventing the installation of a receptacle in the shower stall or the footprint of the tub!! I'll try to look up the exact statement later this weekend.
Don

Paul and Steve,

<threadjack>
I've witnessed mice stealing food from the cat's dish while 5 sleeping cats are unaware and within a few feet of the bowl...

The cat's (and the small dog, Pita) have a door they can use which is hinged vertically like a regular door and opens one direction and a spring closes it. They open it the "hard way" (coming in, pulling the door open) with no difficulties... The only mouse kills we see are the ones brought in from the outside... I guess they think the indoor mice are pets too!

</threadjack>

Here is another pic of a switch in the shower, from the "Photo submitted for discussion Forum" here at EC-Net.
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000012.html

Rick Miell

Rick, Hey! I remember that old thread now!

Boy, ECN has come along way!

Proposal 9-77 in the '92 TCR and the associated comments in the '92 TCD resulted in the first rules in the NEC to prohibit the installation of switches in the shower or tub enclosure. Up until that time the code permitted weatherproof switches in that location. The proposals and comments requested that the switches within 5' have GFCI protection. The CMP only accepted in principle, and the rule in 380-4 for the '93 code only said; "Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as a part of a listed assembly". In the '96 code this was modified to say that any switches in these areas must be a part of a listed tub or shower assembly. Proposal 9-86 in the '98 ROP would have required that switches and receptacles not be located within 36" horizontally of a bathtub or shower enclosure. This was rejected by the CMP with the comment that the existing wording in 380-4 for switches is adequate and that the location of receptacles is not within the scope of Article 380. In the '01 ROP another proposal, 9-74, was made to require switches be outside of the "bathtub and shower zone". This proposal was also rejected.
In the '96 code, 410-57(c) first appeared prohibiting the installation of receptacles in bathtub and shower areas. A proposal, 18-70, was made for the '99 code that would have placed a 3' limit from the bathtub or shower enclosure for receptacle placement. This too was rejected by the CMP. Another proposal, 18-46, was made in the '01 ROP to have a 5' limit for the receptacle location. Again rejected by the code making panel.
It appears very clear to me that both CMP 9 for switches and CMP 18 for receptacles are only intending that the switches and receptacles be outside of the bathtub and shower areas, but that there items are permitted to be installed immediately adjacent thereto.
Don(resqcapt19)

O.K., I guess we do have to teach common sense in the regulations.

So, if "shower or bathtub" space only covers the limits of the actual tub itself, then by 550-8(f)(1), does that mean that a receptacle only has to be 30 inches away from the tub?

Paul,
In my opinion the shower space is defined by the shower enclosure or shower curtain. The bathtub space is the bathtub itself and the space extended vertically above the tub. The rule in 550 prohibits receptacles from being within 30" of these spaces. The rules in 380 and 410 only prohibit installation within the space. I don't know why the rule is different for mobile homes, but it is. There have been other cases of rules being more stringent in Article 550 then in Chapters 1-4. One example that I can think of is the requirement for 4 wire branch circuits for electric dryers and stoves. This rule was in 550 3 or 4 code cycles before it was in Chapter 2.
Don(resqcapt19)

Don,

I'm getting a little lost in reference numbers now, as I'm not too familiar with the layout of the NEC and which section deals with what.

What is the basic category of rules in chapter 2 and for 550-xx that you were comparing? Are we comparing one section on general placement of receptacles vs. another on bathroom-specific rules, or something like that?

How do these placement rules differ in mobile homes?

90.3 Code Arrangement.
This Code is divided into the introduction and nine chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3. Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply generally; Chapters 5, 6, and 7 apply to special occupancies, special equipment, or other special conditions. These latter chapters supplement or modify the general rules. Chapters 1 through 4 apply except as amended by Chapters 5, 6, and 7 for the particular conditions.
Chapter 8 covers communications systems and is not subject to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7 except where the requirements are specifically referenced in Chapter 8.
Chapter 9 consists of tables.
Annexes are not part of the requirements of this Code but are included for informational purposes only.

Paul, i hope this helps here....
~Steve

Thanks.

So.... Presumably rule 550 is in chapter 5? And piecing together your summary with Don's comments about mobile homes, does that mean that chapter 5 (or at least 550-xx) applies specifically to mobile homes?

(Oh boy, this is hard work. It's like when they completely changed the format of our "code" and rule B.24 suddenly became item 23-405-02, or whatever!)

yes Paul 550 is 'Mobile Homes' in Chap 5, Don has presented a few examples that are, let's say 'not the norm', as the article covering mobile homes traditionally would 'modify' as to allow for cheaper housing.