<rant>

I was helping Musser at the Greenbrier Hotel today, we were working on landscape lights, and the GFCI receptacle to feed them, when the question came up for whether the GC/owner/powers-that-be wanted the U ground up or down.

Joe (Musser) went to go find out, and came back with a carpenter/foreman who started explaining to me that "it was code to put them in ground up because if something falls... blah blah blah... we're all (mostly all) familiar with the convincing argument... that is, if it weren't for night lights (polarized plugs) CO detectors (plug-in type) and right-angle appliance cords, it would be a good practice.

However, we got into a rather heated (getting to the point of getting defensive on both parties...) "discussion" on whether or not it was a code requirement.

Joe piped in to say that we'd be more than happy to put them in ground up (and we were) but I didn't want someone going around beleiving that it was code, and telling others that it is code.

I read every article in the 2002 NEC concerning receptacles (again) just to make sure, and now I'm on a search for the ROP's that I could print out and SHOW the man that the very argument was presented and rejected (as it always is every three years...).

*out of breath*
</rant>

Any help out there? The old link to the ROP's that Bill had on here are no longer working...



Thanks guys and gals...

-Virgil

Awww shoot... I guess I should say, the 2001 ROP's...

(I read Don's answer in another thread...)

Virgil,

I uploaded the ROP for this so that you can download it.
Article 210 ROP 514k PDF

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 05-02-2002).]

Thanks!

You da man!

He is a carpenter!
Would he take mandates regarding his trade from you?
Any time someone tells you to do something because "it's code", simply asjk for the article or hand them a book and ask them to show you.

Oh, it gets better, I stopped him in the middle of his speech to tell him that he was in err, he replied something like "well, a master told me..." in which I interrupted him again to inform him that I was a master, contractor, and the local inspectors call me for advice...

He was still adamant that it was code...

Joe said that the "master" was probably his brother or something, which could do no wrong, of course...

Oh, and I did say something about going to the truck to get the book and he could show me, but that was hem-hawed (obviously).

I'm still upset about this.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-02-2002).]

I too tire of other trades imposing thier code specific's without validation, to the point that i purchased the handbook on disc.
{The single code i e-mail the most is 110.26.}
Virgil, you seem very much in the same 'rural' boat as i, having to defend your trade and tradesmanship with little to no backup.
Give the mule the url here, like Redsy said , he's a carpenter........

Very interesting. The part I find most intruiging is that you actually went looking for someone to ask which way they wanted the grounds. Thats just asking for trouble!

The houses are lifetime-lease million dollar vacation houses at a five star resort. (You lease 'em for $1M, then when you die, the Greenbrier gets it back and leases it again...) We're trying like heck to impress, so we give them choices where there are choices.

This one will get most carpenters:Ask them if they`re an expert on reading a tape measuring device(stanly 25') If you look at about the 19" mark there`s a diamond shaped mark on the tape very few actually know what it`s for.If they don`t know walk away shaking your head and you`re telling me how to do electrical work.If they do,better think quick.It`s got me out of a few jams with the know all tradesmen.

Hate to start this here, IT NOT BEING CODE AND ALL I always looked at old worn receptacles hanging half way out of the wall and figured the ground was better down because at least the ground was still intact. agreed the others being loose is also dangerous, but the LAST thing I want coming out is the ground, which of course, is the very reason it is longer, first make last break thing.

Reel-break Alright, ya got me man, my grandfathers and father could all do math on their squares like I could a slide rule, I never picked it up, going into the wrong trade (according to them) but.....WHAT'S THE DIAMOND FOR????????????

Sparky, NOTHING ticks me off more than another trade telling me some great BS they heard is code, and NOTHING gets me quoting code faster. If you held your cool, you can be glad I was not there with you

Hmm, that brings to mind a plumber/builder/general handyman a few years ago who tried to tell me that I had to run a "ring earth" around a building to every radiator and back to the panel.

Ground up or down: Just how likely is it that some metallic object falling would be so close to the wall as to hit the hot/neutral prongs of a plug not fully engaged in the receptacle? I can't see this being a problem.

I'll throw in my ignorance with George too, and ask about that diamond symbol. ???

I think the diamonds or triangles are for placing five studs in a wall over
an eight foot space rather than four or six studs.

If you divide five into 96 inches, it will give 19.2 inches. In other
words, 4 into 96" = 24", 5 into 96" = 19.2", and 6 into 96" = 24".
I think these are the normal centerings of wall studs.
How far off am I?
Tiff

Good guess Tiff, they are commonly used for laying out "silent floor" (aka wood I-beams) which are engineered to work out on a 19.2 center for the 4x8 decking.

Aren't normal wall studs and/or joists on U.S. homes on 16" centers?

pauluk, 16 OC is the standard but in some areas in the US it is permissible to frame 24" OC. This is common around hear on roofs and ceilling joist in less expensive homes.

George,
Musser and I were brought up by Hixson to put them in ground up, he always gave the "gravity" theory. I, however, have found out that manufacturers design their electric-utilizing wares for ground-down orientation... Stress on 90º and 45º angle appliances cords are my biggest beef... They're designed that way to relieve stress. Night lights and other plug in devices like CO detectors tend to become upside down...

As far as manufacturer's "labelling", residential Leviton recepts have the wording stamped readable ground down, spec grades are readable ground up.

I now put them in ground down for residential, and up for commercial/industrial unless told otherwise by the powers-that-be, or if existing recepts already dictate otherwise.

Your argument is noted for my arsenal!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-03-2002).]

This subject has been hashed out for decades. If the U-ground is mounted 'up' on kitchen-counter receptacles, the loose end of a roll of aluminum foil on the counter could more likely contact the hot/neutral pins from contact underneath; if reversed, the U-ground pin could limit that.

Sometimes we are all guilty of being "well frogs." That's living in a well and thinking it's the ocean.

[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 05-03-2002).]

Just to be sure...

Are there any other codes (CABO, BOCA, other...) that could possibly hint towards a requirement for a certain receptacle orientation? Even on a state on municipal level?

I've personally have been told by a housing inspector (FHA) to turn a ground up receptacle over in a kitchen... no word on the lack of GFCI... (walk-through inspection for a potential homeowner, not my work, just was there for an estimate...)

Any other horror stories out there?



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-04-2002).]

Bjarney. I hope you are joking about the aluminum foil.

Sorry, not this time. It came up in an IAEI chapter meeting ~10 years ago.

One group of sticklers on U-ground direction is hospital (Art.517-type) inspectors.

Well frogs.

maybe it's time for a new receptacle style?

Computer's been broken @ least a week...
Maybe Virgil or Bill could post a pic of
that "Grounds Out" receptacle that was here before!
Can't find it in the archives.
I still think it's the best z

Update:

Today while doing final punch-out, I ran across the same gentleman, Joe had given him the copy of the ROP that Bill pointed me to...

He said and I quote: "I'm still checking, it's a newer code than that..."

He doesn't believe me!



On another note:

I found a floor plan of the Copeland Hill houses:



After viewing the website , I've found that they may not be lifetime lease after all, or atleast that isn't the only option.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-11-2002).]

not a single mention of 'ground up' receptacles...well...(nose up in air) ...i guess we'll not stay there !!!!

Hey, I sent one of those “We’ll make you millions on Your Idea!!” places my amazing new design for a quadruple U-ground duplex receptacle, and boy, did they get their panties in a bunch for about a week! ;-) ;-) ;-)


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 05-11-2002).]

LOL @ sparky (Steve)... (Or is that w/ sparky...)

We really need to rename this site "Electrical Contractor Network and Comedy Club"

Man, my ribs hurt...