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Posted By: Bill Addiss Must Replace Wiring? - 01/25/02 11:03 PM
Has anyone heard of situations where wiring must be replaced when it is exposed during a Renovation?

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/25/02 11:49 PM
In as 'required', and not simply desired?

Not up here
[Linked Image]
Posted By: electure Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 12:10 AM
That's one of the things that's been so tough here because of the Municipal Codes or Inspectors.
You never know what they'll ask for, or if it's actually part of their local Code.
Some will just point and say "Fix that".
Yes, I've seen that, and never challenged it. I asked them to write it up so that I could have some teeth to my proposal to the GC or owner for the Extra to repair/update it.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 12:24 AM
I've heard that it is in our State adopted building code that when substandard wiring is exposed as part of a renovation it must be replaced.

Example; renovating a house without replacing Aluminum wiring would be a violation. I wonder if that would also apply to 60C and 75C wiring?

Bill
Posted By: electure Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 12:49 AM
Isn't type TW 60° wire still allowed?
(or old style type NM)?
Yeah, right electure you old *&^%, like you could buy some of it without a special order.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 01:18 AM
electure,

The person I heard it from mentioned the word sub-standard. I was thinking of the old NM cables, Bx and such with less than 90C temp rating, because they would be less than todays' standard.

The subject came up referring to someone that renovated an entire house but did not replace the Aluminum wiring (which was totally exposed)

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 01-25-2002).]
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 04:25 AM
Bill,
I can't imagine what kind of "intelligent" individual would expose aluminum wiring and not replace it. Is this a fire repair company?
In VA if sub-standard is exposed, it will be replaced and the area brought up to current code. Usually that involves GFCI's etc, but that al statement really floors me.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 12:03 PM
From my experience if the walls are open you must at least add receptacles to bring to code. If the house was any more than about fifteen years old I would insist that we rip out old wiring and start fresh.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 02:04 PM
George,

I don't know any details on that job. I was hoping that the person I heard it from would join us and add more details. I would also like to see the actual reference in the code.

I have always been under the impression that replacement was up to the individual. To hear that it is mandated somewhere is a bit of a surprise to me.

Emscott,

I think that is a good rule to go by, but is it enforceable? My observations are that existing wiring (if it met code at the time of installation) has been allowed to remain if untouched during a renovation. I've been through many Kitchen remodels fighting to install required outlets, but the "I'm not going to use it" attitude and the fact that they have to pay for the special countertop and multipurpose wonder cabinets has won more times than it should've.

Bill
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 04:30 PM
Bill:

Look here at a new 2002 NEC item in Article 80, although not mandatory, it does give valuable information.

I would recommend that a proposal be drafted to cover this in the full body of the code in Article 110:

"80.9 Application.

(A) New Installations. This Code applies to new installations. Buildings with construction permits dated after adoption of this Code shall comply with its requirements.

(B) Existing Installations. Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants. Where changes are required for correction of hazards, a reasonable amount of time shall be given for compliance, depending on the degree of the hazard."

Frank: You agree? Any other AHJ's here? Come aboard, the posts are going to get hotter and hotter during the next few months because we only have until November to send in proposals for the 2005 NEC, and there is a deadline just look at the rear pages in the new 2002 NEC.
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 04:51 PM
What a terrible time to be asked for a code reference. My books are mostly at my desk at work, and I'm sitting here with a broken leg. Bill, I'll try to locate this reference through some friends or on the net,but it's gonna be at least 2 more weeks before I am allowed back at work.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 04:56 PM
George,

Take care of that leg. You weren't standing 'on, or above the step' again were you? [Linked Image]

Bill
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/26/02 05:31 PM
Bill,
Good one, long story short, in early Dec. my leg started hurting, more than usual considering my arthritis. I went to a doctor who WROTE ME A LETTER saying it was NOT broken. I keep hobbling on it figuring I've damaged a ligament again. Couldn't stand the pain anymore, went to an ortopaedic surgeon on Monday who said it oughta hurt, there's a 1/2" separation on the bone. [Linked Image]

He dared me to walk on it for 3 weeks, when he will assess if I need a steel rod. But yes, I was up and down ladders during the time.....probably should NOT have been doing that, huh? [Linked Image]
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/27/02 12:35 AM
Bill,
I 'splained that I don't have my BOCA's here, but the 2000 International Residential Code AJ401.1 says renovation work will meet the code. I think that says if it is renovated, it will be brought up to date. They have some exceptions, but my shot is they don't apply when you start the renovation.
Page 552.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 03:45 AM
George,

Ouch! (That sounds painful!)

I haven't gotten to see the code yet, but on the paper where the sections are written down for me there is a note under one of them.
Quote
Note: not visible & not subject to increased loads shall be permitted to remain. Where subject to increased loads shall conform with Sub Chapter ...
Bill
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 04:14 AM
Bill,
You realize I'm shooting in the dark here. I do NO residential work, and literally all my commercial is "rip out all existing and start over". That is the way it has been enforced in this area though, if you open it, it is visible, and does not meet the currently enforced code, it will before you close it up again, including boxes, wiring method, etc..

I have seen the ruling on aluminum branch wiring years ago, I know you can't buy al romex, but Hey, before it comes up in my life, where does it say it is outlawed?
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 04:27 AM
George,

I'll try and get the language this week. i may have to go to the Library to get it. It is illegal in our areas to install aluminum branch circuit wiring and even service and feeder cables in many areas near me.
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 04:37 AM
Bill,
Mixed feelings here. Aluminum, IF PROPERLY PREPARED, and maintained, is not dangerous. I realize that Al should be completely, totally, and irrevocably banned from 15 and 20 amp branch circuits.

No one that wires houses can afford to take the time to brush, penetrox, torque, receptacles and switches, and they won't. Then the homeowner surely does not want the expense of checking and retorquing occasionally, fires happened because of sloppy workmanship, and no maintenance. But I can't think of many instances where Al in service cable has caused many troubles.

On the other hand, I used copper on all when I was in business, in my own house, or anything else (aside from temporary services) so you can see my level of trust. I have used aluminum in lots of places though, and don't recall any major problems.

Hey Don, you're good with the fire stats, what say you? [Linked Image]
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 01:18 PM
George,
I agree that the original aluminum branch circuit wiring was a serious problem, but in about 1973 a new alloy was put on the market along with the CO/ALR rated devices. These materials did not have the problems like the older stuff did. I worked on two apartment complexes at that time, one with copper and the other with aluminum. We continued to do the service on these units for about 20 years. There were no more problems on the aluminum than on the copper project.

Bill,
I have heard of many areas banning small aluminum branch circuits and I don't think any #10 or 12 aluminum is on the market, but I haven't heard of aluminum feeders being banned. The utility here uses only aluminum for everything except the grounding electrode conductor. A few contractors use aluminum for the service entrance and larger feeders in commercial installations, but most use all copper.
Don(resqcapt19)
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 02:01 PM
Don,

I don't know about the rest of my state (NY) but here in some towns and townships of Suffolk County there is a ban on Aluminum wiring. Some areas it seems that Al underground service feeders are ok and others it is not. In these areas we must put Adapters on the (even utility owned!) wires if we change the meterpan. We cannot use Al SEU cable for services for many years.

The Utility still continues to use Al as they have in the past.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/28/02 11:20 PM
I get a lot of complaints about the old nickle-coated Cu Romex... It gets mistaken for Al often by DIYer's and homeowners alike.

I've not run into the Al #10 or #12's yet.

I agree as far as SE cable, I've only seen problems where anti-oxidant was not used (and probably wasn't torqued to specs either).
Posted By: wolfdog Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/29/02 02:24 PM
George, Are you going to talk to a lawyer about the leg problem?

[This message has been edited by wolfdog (edited 01-29-2002).]
Posted By: George Corron Re: Must Replace Wiring? - 01/29/02 03:10 PM
Wolfdog,
Not being a litigious sort by nature, the answer is not unless someone else does. I am pleased that no one wants to fight about it, the doc says 3 weeks, NO weight bearing and it MAY heal. I kinda wanted to leave with the equipment I was issued and no additions. As long as the process is allowed to continue naturally, I have no intention.

I was in business 12 years and saw an attorney twice, once for incorporation papers and once for some advice on a very sticky contract. Filed my own lien papers.

Thanks for asking, you willing to be my attorney?
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