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Posted By: Admin What is a "Qualified Person" - 10/10/00 12:59 PM
Origionally posted by Joe Tedesco:

Joe Tedesco posted 10-07-2000 06:11 AM ET (US)
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Please expand on the term defined in the NEC and OSHA as "Qualified Person" as described in the NEC?
Posted By: sparky Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 10/19/00 12:12 AM
The term "Qualified Persons" is defined by the state or juristiction you live in, the exact terminology shall be convoluted in direct proportion to the amount of (or lack of) bureaucracy responsive to said locale.
The legislation of the latter is equative of those who lobby for loose restrictions vs. the statistical morbidity and mortality of so called "Qualified Persons" . So it is in the "Home Depot, Time Life" mentality of todays market. -------------Sparky
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 10/19/00 02:36 AM
Sparky,

wow! Can you say that 3 times fast? - just kidding smile

The code - and many other things of this type, is often criticized for being too wordy (lengthy). I would like to see some simple - yet accurate definitions of important terms that are used. I do not know what that would be - or even if it is possible.

How would you describe, or define a "Qualified" person in terms easily understandable and not requiring more definitions or including terms not already acceptably defined? - See even the Question is "wordy" smile
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/03/00 02:57 PM
See 70E for qualified and unqualified persons 1-5.4.1 Qualified Persons.


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 11-18-2002).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/03/00 10:50 PM
Joe,

This sounds like a pretty good - yet vague definition. Who is it though that gets to determine if someone meets these qualifications? I can see that sucessful completion of recognized training courses could contribute torwards this, but the evaluation of someones decision-making process seems like a judgement call and where does that come from?
Posted By: doc Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/06/00 03:41 AM
What is really sad is just because you pass the what ever test given by the who ever qualified person is does not mean you know what you are doing or that you will teach someone else the correct way.
The term qualified is really way to open ,but yet if you make the wording to strict it would limit a lot of learning,as some of us are self taught and some of us know our limits ,but have seen lots of casses where the word qualified was thrown out with the trash on some people
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/06/00 06:59 PM
Everyone knows "interpretation" of any term is necessary for lawyers to be able to make millions. As qualified gets more defined, employers are required to do more and more training to lessen their liability in an accident. Therefore, in order to meet their training requirements, they are more and more turning to training institutions. When the litigation occurs, the employer can point the finger at the training company. The training company then has to defend its program. The employer is ultimately liable, but the more entities that can be dragged into the case the longer it will drag on and the more money for the lawyers and the higher insurance premiums will rise for all imvolved. Think about this when you are sleeping through another training program where you get a certificate or sign an attendance roster. Those pieces of paper are documenting your road to being qualified. Why are you there? To provide the company with ammunition against you in the event of an accident? "I slept through that part" doesn't help your case or your survivors case very much. Think about this as an instructor when your class is boring and the students can't see why they are there. The student should have a different and more personal reason for being there than to meet a legally enforcible definition of "qualified." The instructor must be able to get this accross to the student.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/07/00 08:32 AM
You make a good point. I'm not going to ask you what your definition of a qualified person would be, (but if you have one please share it with us) What would you consider the most important area(s) of instruction necessary for a "qualified person" and can you recommend a good reference source(s) of information on that subject?
Posted By: doc Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/08/00 03:43 AM
just started work at a new company and was having a conversation with one of the maint. guys about their pervious maint supervisor,I was informed about how good this guy was with electricial and how fast he could do it. This man was the best and really good at his job,even has his journey lisc.The lisc. gives the thought that he is qualified.Well when we started doing some basic electric stuff such as finding the breaker and turning it off ,hooking the green wire to the metal box with a pigtail, pigtailing the hot and grounded conductor from one outlet to other and last but not least re wiring a machine that needed 220 and 110 to it {the old super } jumped off one side of the 220 and with no neutral or grounded conductor ,he used the old tie the white to the green and then put them under a screw going back to the conduit method } .Everyone wanted to know why I was doing all the stuff this way our other maint. supervisor did't do it like thatThe sad part is he taught his underlings how to do it ALL WRONG. It is really hard to reteach people once they have seen a qualified person do work but have informed each and everyone of them that the next guy that works a hot circuit or fails to test with meter before working a circuit would be a free agent as I would instantly put hiom on waivers .The message of all this is in the eyes of some I would not be qualified and in the others the pervious super. was well qualified so go fiqure
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/09/00 06:39 AM
This has been an interesting thread. First Joe asks for input on the term "Qualified Person" as defined and explained in NEC and OSHA. Bill wants easily understandable terms. Joe gives the 70E requirements. Bill says that is vague and wants to know by whom and how the determination of qualified is made. He refers to recognized training courses. Doc says testing and stricter definition of qualified may not be fair to self taught persons. I throw in lawyers and liabilities. Doc gives an example of someone who was considered qualified by people who knew nothing of the definition or any of the requirements involved. I would like to throw in the 2002 NEC proposal to amend the definition to include a requirement that the person "has received safety training on the hazards involved."

I personally like the current definitions and the listing of further requirements in OSHA and 70E. But I am a person that was always good at reading and taking tests. The people writing the standards probably are a lot more like me than they are like the average electrician. That is not meant to demean the average electrician. Hopefully they are electricians because they enjoy the trade and have talents, interests and skills that make them suited for it. I have worked with electricians that thought knowing Ohm's Law was only for engineers. Some of them were very good at the work they did. They were qualified to do the work they did. Some I would trust to work in a hot panel, some I would not. The determining factor was whether they knew how to do the work safely, whether hot or not. Keep in mind I came up open shop industrial and journeymen were referred to as "mechanics."

When I am explaining the OSHA requirements for a Qualified Person working on or near energized parts I simplify it a little. I will use the 70E requirements that Joe posted as example.
Such persons permitted to work within limited approach of exposed energized conductors and circuit parts shall, at a minimum, be additionally trained in all of the following: (Things you need to know to do hot work)
(a) The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed energized parts from other parts of electric equipment (Be able to tell what's HOT and what's NOT)
(b) The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed energized parts (Be able to tell how hot it is)
(c) The approach distances specified in Table 2-1.3.4 of Part II and the corresponding voltages to which the qualified person will be exposed (How close can I get based on how hot it is?)
(d) The decision-making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazardl and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely (What are the degree of the hazards and what methods and equipment do I use to do the job safely and to protect myself in the event of accident?)


Who determines if a person is qualified for a certain task? The employer or his designee is legally required to do this. I am not concerned with how they do it. I feel it is ultimately up to the person doing the work. If he or she doesn't feel they can do it safely the way they are being asked or directed to do it, they should speak up and ask for more equipment, different procedures, or more training. The training may only be watching someone else do the task. The worker is the one risking injury and death in the course of making a living, not the managers and human resource people. On a management level, determinations of qualified or not qualified will never be free from cost and liability factors, ignorance of the real danger(likelihood and magnitude of an accident), and the belief they will be as lucky in the future as they have been in the past. This is shown by the number of companies that realize employees need training only after someone is injured or killed.

I may point out the things stated in my earlier post to my students. I do not leave them thinking I only want to help them achieve a legally acceptable level of qualified. I want them to leave the class knowing they can do their jobs safely. That may involve knowing their personal limits concerning a particular task or knowing they have the right to question the safety of the standard way of doing that task. If the employee is honest and sincere in his decisions and has a problem with his employer because of this, either he shouild not be doing this type of work or should not be working for that employer. Let's face facts. The work has to be done. Either the employer will be agreeable and find a safe way to do it or get someone who is willing to take more risks. The latter type of employer is the reason we have OSHA.

The big question is: How does an employee learn that he is taking an unnecessary risk in the first place? When did most of you learn what levels of shock are really hazardous and that available amps determine the level of arc flash?

A little side story about employer concern for the health and safety of workers: I was working on a Beta gauge in Mexico some years back. This machine used a radioactive source to measure the thickness of sheet metal. The radiation decals had been taken off the machine because government inspectors would charge extra fees and make extra inspections if they knew the machine was radioactive. The operator was instructed that when a red light came on, the shield was retracted from the source, exposing the radiation to the product. The operator was instructed to visually verify that the source was exposed so that all the product would get measured. The operator would walk up to the source, with his hands shielding his genitals for fear of becoming sterile, and look straight at the source with his unprotected eyes. Some people just don't know because they have not been told or shown.




[This message has been edited by gpowellpec (edited 12-13-2000).]
Posted By: Scott35 Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/09/00 08:15 AM
Mr. Powell;

Just wanted to say that this is an excellent post!
You have brought up a few things for us all to think about.
At a risk of sounding too arrogant, I thought that the guys working with me were doing things as correct as possible, since I tried to teach them the way I have done things [not "Short-Cuts"!!], but who knows. If they have learned something from other Contractors, they are encouraged to discuss it so we can way the differences. Once in a while, a situation comes up like the one you explained where the Electrician made a 120 VAC circuit without a grounded conductor by using the EGC [conduit].

I am now thinking about using some equipment that we have from recent remodel/demo jobs for training. I was thinking about a couple sub panels and a Transformer to explain not only the grounding systems and circuit balancing, but training on live circuit identification. This equipment will never be energized, so the only up-front risk is to be incorrect.

They have a firm understanding of circuit tracing, as it was a major part of site surveys for one of our largest clients. The only drawback is that they are familiar to using the typical tone tracers [we use the Pasar Amprobe model T300], but it shouldn't be the only method that they know, so I'm going to show alternative methods, such as the drill and ammeter technique, or similar ones mentioned on this and other groups by others ASAP.

Thanks for the stories! Just shows that there's always something else to think about.

Scott. "S.E.T."
Posted By: sparky Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/10/00 11:42 AM
I hear that the Revise Code Section Proposal 1-178 could, in 2002 have the definition of "Qualified Person" which is in nearly 100 code articles read;

"Qualified Person, One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the equipment and has received safety training on the hazards involved."

This would add "safety training" , which in itself could constitute a definition.....in lieu of which the door is probably open for a tidal wave of after market videos for contractors to achieve compliance.....
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/10/00 05:20 PM
I mentioned this proposal in my last post, but didn't give any opinions. Being an instructor I might would benefit from this proposal being accepted. Safety training would now be mandated and accidents would not be necessary to show employers the need for training. Now we need to define "safety training." Would instructors and material need to be approved or certified by some entity and who would that entity be?
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/10/00 05:42 PM
While I am on the subject let me throw in more lawyers and liability issues. If "safety training" is required for compliance with NEC, the local AHJ is now involved in what was previously only an OSHA concern. Are they going to enforce this Code requirement? Will they increase licensing fees or add inspection fees to cover checking your training records? Are they going to stipulate the requirements for type of training and whose brother-in-law is qualified to give it? Will residential only contractors be required to train to the same standards as insustrial contractors? Can some be grandfathered? How will the insurance companies handle this? Now there is another measurable factor for rate hikes or discounts. When an accident happens the lawyers for the victim or survivors has more grounds to ask for punitive damages or crimminal charges. If traing is required, training must be documented. If there is no documentation "I didn't know that he didn't know" can not be an employer's defense to avoid the willful negligence issue.

These are just some questions. I don't have answers and my opinion of the proposal could go either way.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/10/00 06:12 PM
You raise some very interesting points that I had not thought of. Something that, on the surface seems so simple and like such a good idea can have far-reaching consequences.
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/11/00 01:01 AM
That is why lawyers outnumber engineers in this country. And electricians generally think there are too many engineers.
Posted By: sparky Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/12/00 12:40 AM
Ahh..... that rotten "L" word for LIABILITY....that's what it all boils down to.... This is probably true catalyst of many code changes. This is the double edge sword bureaucrats wave in almost any organization. So ask yourself, does it really help our trade out in the long haul or not? I mean the guy with the toolbelt and the blisters, not the lawyers......
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/12/00 01:02 AM
Does anyone know of a good lawyer and/or bureaucrat bashing forum or can we start that as a thread in this one?
Posted By: gpowellpec Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/12/00 01:33 AM
The previous post was entirely in jest. I have more to do than sit around poking fun at parasites.

Now for the serious content.

Since the NEC is a standard for safe installation of electrical equipment I do not believe it should get into requirements for the workers. The use of the term qualified as it is defined now should be enough. If safety traing is required to be considered qualified by the NFPA in 2002, what will be required in 2005, 2008, 2011....? Local authorities already have requirements for licensing. If they feel safety training is required for journeymen or apprentices let them mandate it and enforce as they see proper on their own or leave it to OSHA. If NFPA wants to require safety training in 70E let them define qualified to require safety training for the purposes and scope of that document or require it in some other way. The purpose of the NEC does not include protecting persons from themselves or maintaining electrical eequipment. What in the scope of the NEC requires working on or with energized equipment other than power tools? And if "safety training" includes use of ladders and other non-electrical equipment, what concern is that for a standard making body whose purpose is the "safeguarding of persons and property from the hazards arising from the use of ELECTRICITY"?
Posted By: sparky Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/12/00 10:33 PM
I agree, the NEC is a standard, one that i live by and aspire to every day. The problem is that it it heading towards becoming overbearing, more legal than electrical. Fred Hartwell wrote a good article on this a while ago, i respect the fact that he had the gonads to say it the way he did. One must consider future sparky's having to muddle through all of this to make a living......while your local Home Depot will be doing aisleway seminars for a public, most of whom don't know an outlet from an omlet......another good case in point is my home state of Vermont, where single family dwellings are wired by roving packs of monkey's.......no sparky required.....yet for sparky to bid it out it's got to have things like AFCI's next month........which the monkey's will not do...so you see,the changes should work for the sparky as well as the public......or soon you have the problem as pointed out by the powers that be....there's no more sparky's around than 20 years ago.....no one wants to be a sparky.....
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/13/00 04:40 PM
Sparky,

It is a sad thing that the public does not usually see anything except the "Bottom Line" (how much does it cost?) when it comes to Electrical work. I was on a service call at a home where the Owner had wired his own Hot Tub to save money, but had hired a landscaper to sprinkle grass seed around some bare spots in the lawn (It is also possible that the Landscaper did it). He had used a 3 wire cable to wire it with - 2 conductor plus bare ground for a 120/240 v tub. (Bare Ground was used as a Neutral) Anyway, I always think that this person thought nothing of wiring this Tub (Electricity & Water?) but didn't trust himself to rake some dirt and sprinkle grass seed. Something is wrong here! The public is not getting the message about the dangers involved in Electrical work not being performed properly. Since Electrical work is something that is largely a hidden thing they feel very bad about having to pay for it. So they will give the job to anyone who says they can do it.

I am curious as to why some areas of the country still do not have a Licensing rule for Electrical work. I thought that governments were supposed to have the Public Safety in mind and why wouldn't they include this? If licensing is the wrong word (some areas) I apologize, what I mean is that My opinion is that Anyone who does Electrical work for some one else should have the proper training and credentials to prove it and also carry a minimum of Insurance to cover. This can be by State, City, whatever - but this means that someone is watching out for the public and assuring that code minimums are met. This would also have the effect of putting all bidders on the job at an equal position and the owner can compare "Apples to Apples"
Where's the downside to that?

Just my opinions,

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/13/00 10:05 PM
Give me Apples vs. Apples and I'd be a happy man, but the reality is just not so. The inspectors in my state , as well as I, have to deal with your hot tub guy every day. They are unfortunately understaffed, and lack the legislative "teeth" to properly deal with those scenarios. It should be noted that the punishment justifies the crime for most of the monkey's out there. Some time ago, they convinced me into the IAEI, which can have an educating perspective on such matters. As an ex-fireman, and current EMT, i've seen firsthand what the "unqualified" can do , and wonder when all the morbidity and mortality statistics will amount to legislative action. I'm all for being qualified for my trade, most any serious sparky is. Tell any one of us in the trenches that we got to go the distance, and most won't have a problem. Create a double standard by which we do the time, while the monkey's are free to make the dime, and most will have a problem....
Posted By: pip Re: What is a "Qualified Person" - 12/15/00 02:11 AM
qualified person=me :0)
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