ECN Forum
With the latest storm comes yet another wave of questions to electrical forums about hoohing up generators.

When the weather is nice, we have loads of questions about tying in solar, wind, and other 'alternative' power sources.

Both issues come down to there being a transfer switch. So, I ask: is it time to mandate a service-capacity transfer switch with every service change or new house?

Is it even time to consider adding one as a matter of design choice, for 'just in case?'
The easy way to do this would be to incorporate a lock out device in the cover with a back fed generator breaker. As long as it was an available option for the enclosure, I think your requirement would be met.
Adding an ATS/MTS may be a good design choice, service rated, or as Greg mentioned a compliant lockout and backfed.

There are a lot of generator permit apps rolling in here after the recent storms. Whole house setups, and manual backfed setups with a twistlock inlet for gen connections.

A few comm buildings are and have been preping with tap boxes for cam lock connections, with transfer equip ranging from auto to manual with 'Kirk Keys' lockout.

An issue that has come up recently (pre-storms) is the capacity of the natural gas utility systems to handle the influx of whole house, natural gas gens!

There are two apps for whole house gens powered by compressed natural gas, awaiting reviews by Fire, Zoning before they get to me. I wonder where ya get CNG?
I hear people are already telling the government to make it mandatory for gas stations to have back up generators. Next I am sure they are going to want the banks and convenience stores to have them too. How many large grocery stores have you seen throwing out dumpsters of food that defrosted or went bad?
Publix, our biggest grocery chain here, has generators at most of the stores, enough to run the coolers, POS and enough light to get around the store.

It is nice knowing that a store will be open shortly after the storm passes.

Gas stations on major routes are required to have generators by law here.

Maybe you folks up there should just schedule a conference with Florida emergency response and building code people before you reinvent the wheel wink

We may have more preparedness than you all need but we are not strangers to that kind of storm. It was certainly an eye opener for me when I came here 30 years ago and things for coping just keep getting better.

Looking at all the damage pictures, a few things stand out. Your houses are not strapped (no uplift protection) and you should cut down or severely trim a whole lot of trees.
I also see virtually all the power poles and pilings on the beach that failed are creosote. When was the last time they were allowed to install those? the 60s?
Those are old poles.
Greg,


You are absolutely correct about the old and tired ways that we still use up here. People around complain like crazy when the POCO wants to cut down trees by the power line. Yet they are the first ones to bitch and moan when they are out of power.
Yup, we trim our trees all the time, NEVER let them grow near the lines:

[Linked Image from i143.photobucket.com]
Around here it was Charley that got FPL to get medieval on the trees. When Wilma hit our power problems were minimal. They have stayed aggressive with the trees. My lineman neighbor says trimming trees is a lot cheaper than replacing broken infrastructure.
Guess Reno made a trip over to the Great Garden State!!

I knew I should have taken a pic of the HO who tied a leaning telco pole to an evergreen tree. I had to look twice when I drove by!

The populace is getting more upset with JCP&L, and there is a few towns that are legally looking to get them out of town. (Good Luck)

My home area was mostly flood related, going inland it was trees and snapped poles. Other areas were blown substations. Old and tired? That's the popular opinion!
"There is a few towns that are legally looking to get them out of town."

There's the problem.

Some folks think you solve problems with your attitude. That is, if your ego is bigger, you can push the other guy around. That if you argue and BS enough, problems are solved- to your liking.

I once had such a discussion with a gent regarding the help he was supposed to provide. I ended that with this statement: "The concrete is here. You see that pile? It is setting as we speak. Either you find bodies for shovels NOW, or you will have a very big lump of hard concrete sitting in the middle of your parking lot. Do you still want to waste time arguing?"

That's what ALL of our power grids are coming to. The 'lawyers' and 'activists' have done a wonderful job of obstructing everything the PoCo wants to do. Sooner or later, things WILL break - and no amount of clever talk will get power restored.

You make the PoCo limit their stores of spare parts, you restrict their manpower to absolute minimums, you deny them the money to make upgrades or to perform preventive maintenance - and one day you'll be without power, and have no one to blame but yourself.

Investing is 'alternative energy' might sound sexy, but it won't replace that rotting power pole.

I get the point about trees. Everyone plants them and then forgets them. Worse than that, they want to plant something that grows fast, because they want the shade NOW. When the branches get near the wires, suddenly it's the PoCo's fault / problem.

When your power is out, the linesmen are heros. Come summer, and we're back to the usual "PoCo is a bunch of crooks" mindset. Ever pause to think maybe WE are the problem?
Reno:
IMHO, the problems that are part of the recent storm are not that of the linemen, the out of state crews that arrived here to help, or the hard working support people that are in various depts of the POCO.

Here in NJ, one utility (JCP&L) has a bad track record from past failures, either results of natural issues, or of their equipment being neglected for a long time. That company has been thru three name changes within the last 10-15 years caused by changes in corporate ownership. JCP&L, then GPU, then now back to JCP&L with First Emergy as the corporate owners. The popular consensus here is it's all about the corporate bottom line.

The biggest complaint over the years is...LACK of communications, and outright false information. Tell the people it will be ten days, or whatever...not it will be restored by tonite. Repeat the last comment for many, many tonites.

There are others in areas (Long Island, areas of New York that have issues also, most of which I have no direct knowledge of, perhaps Mr. Bill can add something from his locale.

No pushing anyone around, no ego, just comments from others who are tired of bad communications. It's not like saying I like 7-11 as opposed to Wawa, or Quick Check convenience stores. There is NO choice in POCOs, only choice of who you can purchase the KWs from, but no choice on the delivery system.

Please enlighten me on the "WHO" is that you refer to as restricting the manpower and materials??

John, I was referring to the various clowns who appear at every public hearing to protest every request for a rate increase, who object to every power line, who find fault with every method of making electricity.

Prime among these is Ralph Nader's "Public Citizen" group, which has even succeeded in some states - Illinois is one - in adding a second "citizens" group to regulate PoCo's, in addition to the Public Utilities boards.

I also include Senate leader Harry Reid, and his allies - to include the current president as well as Mr. Clinton - who brag of their success in shutting down power plants and denying access to the fuels needed to run them.

I refer to every major media outlet, which is only too happy to allege imperfections at the PoCo, trotting out some sympathy case to sway you.

The result? PoCo rates these days do not allow for anything but 'breakdown' repairs. Forget ordinary maintenance. Various strictures have led to fewer apprentices - meaning fewer linesmen, as the current work force ages.

Well, all that 'concern for the environment' or worry about 'wastefull spending' won't replace a broken transformer.

I'm not letting these 'reformers' off the hook for the miseries they cause.
Reno:
I respectfully disagree with 90% of your responses above.

The road I was going down had no political influence, and my comments above are a general reflection of many of the people in my area, and other areas served by JCP&L.

No politicians are responsible for the poor communications.

Politics aside, let's get this thread back to transfer switches.

Just backfeed an interlocked breaker ......

I just did a service change using Square D Homeline gear. I don't think there is an interlock for them. Am I wrong?

Otherwise, a bit of cord & a plug hanging out the bottom of the box might be all you need for a safe (portable) genny hook-up.
Here is a cut sheet for a Square D interlock kit. This what you're thinking of?

http://static.schneider-electric.us...-Homeline-HOM-LK-PK-QOM/40273-809-02.pdf
mbhydro:

Thanks for that link!!
I must be missing something ... that sure looks like a QO breaker, and I can't see how you mount a QO in a Homline panel.
Reno:
I saw the same thing, but looking at page 1, the interlock kit is for QO & Homeline.

Im not fond of the three language instructions, in the three column format.
If you look at the table, you see 4 different part numbers
QOCGK2 (C) is for the QO interior cover
HOMCGK2 (C) is for the Homeline interior cover
QORBGK2 (C) Is for the QO 3R cover
HOMRBGK2 (C) is for the Homeline 3R cover

Each come back to a different kit but similar enough to use one instruction document.

There does seem to be a lot of profit in this little gizmo. I guess it is how they got back the price of a U/L listing evaluation.
Guess I should have read a little closer & the whole thing!
Truth be told, I made my own ... but don't tell the U/L police.
I used 1/8" aluminum for the sliding plate and brackets on both sides to locate the plate. It effectively interlocks the 2 breakers and that is the intent.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Proposal: Make Transfer Switch Mandatory? - 01/08/13 07:27 AM
Why can't you just have a secondary box next to the panel that has 2 contactors that close (one opens) on supply failure and feeds only the essential circuits of any given house and a male inlet on the outside of the building, to connect the generator to?
When the supply is re-instated the contactors revert to their "normal" state.
I suppose if they were mechanically interlocked and listed as transfer equipment, you could. For that matter you only need one with normally open and normally closed contacts.

Isn't that what an automatic transfer switch is anyway?
Mike, I'm sure it 'would' work. Nor have I any objection to field-made items.

I am not sure of the requirements in the testing standards. Perhaps there is required to be, as with reversing motor starters, both mechanical and electrical interlocks.

We're missing the point of my original post, though. I'm not really asking about 'how' to do this.

What I was asking was: Has the use of generators, especially little portable ones, become so common that we should instal a means of connecting them when we do a service? Should the code require us to do so?

It's easy to over-think things, to get carried away with inspired engineering. So easy, it's easy to forget what we're really trying to do: eliminate any temptation for the consumer to rig up a 'suicide cord.' It amazes me that folks don't just run extension cords to a few essential appliances, but no, they want to get fancy.

If I can tie apposing breakers together, I can easily set a power 'inlet' by the panel. Flip the breaker and you can now plug in the generator. Folks will eventually figure out that the genny stalls if they try to run too much, and will manually shut off the unnecessary loads until the genny can run smoothly.

These points were emphasized for me on Dec. 26, when I lost power for nine hours. The gas furnace needed power for the blower - and a few lights would have been nice. All well within the abilities of the smallest generator.

While ECN is not a place for 'political' discussions, we have to recognize the political forces that have let our 'grid' decay over the past few decades. The experts warned us that this would happen, and were freely ridiculed by the activists. End result? We're going to see more power outages, and they will increase in both number and severity.

So, maybe it is time that all new services have some provision for hooking up a generator.

As much as the folks at BigGenerator, Inc., would like to sell us a whole-house system for big dollars, we need to recognize that Harry Homeowner is far more likely to get a portable generator at the local home center and try to tye it in himself. I'd like to tempt him into doing it safely.
Reno,

John had water problems and up here we have major tree problems. The POCO (JCP&L) Try to keep up with it. There are trees everywhere around here and if a branch isn't hitting a primary wire and blowing out the fuse on the pole. Then it would be most likely cause by squirrels. They like to get up on the primary and run along the wires. That isn't a problem till they decide to get off the wire 1 foot at a time and POW. 1 fried squirrel and 1 blown fuse. Sometimes the squirrel will drop and the reclosure will let the power flow again.

We also have people around here who do not want you to cut any trees at all. There is actually 1 town next to me that will prohibit the POCO from cutting trees. Guess what happen during Sandy! There were trees down on almost every street. The whole town was blacked out. They didn't get power for 12-14 days. It took a lot of time cutting up the trees.
John,

POCO is already trimming trees around here again. There are a lot of limbs still hanging from trees just waiting to land on the lines again. Last year when they were by my property trimming, I told them to take as much down as they wanted. I would rather have the power than the trees. They said that they were only allowed to trim 5' back from primary and 3 ' back from the secondary. They didn't want any extra work to do or clean up.
I should shoot you some pictures of what FPL does to trees but it can simply be called getting whacked in the Tony Soprano sense. If they don't cut it down they cut a hole in it you could fly a Huey through.

The have all had our fill of trees taking out the power.

That is one of the few times you can just whack a tree around here. If it is in the middle of your yard and you just want it gone, you may need a permit and maybe mitigation.
(unless it gets sick and dies wink )
We've all seen my picture of the huge log suspended in the air by the wire it grew around.

PoCo rules say to keep vegetation away from the wires. PoCo regs (at that place) place the burden on the property owner. Obvously, the issue was neglected for far too long. That tree wasn't removed until I was called to extend the service.

No sooner did the city come to inspect the new service than a furball ensued over that tree. Why, this desert city was a 'certified tree city' or some such, and you can't just remove trees! You need to do an environmental statement, go through hearings, etc.

Bull pucky, said I. PoCo rules trump 'green city' criteria. That tree was never legal, PoCo is the AHJ, and they say remove it. The city backed off, whispering that they hoped no one complained ...

On another tack ...

I'm as guilty as the next man. In planning my complete house remodel, I imagined all sorts of things for the back yard - not even once taking into consideration the power drop from the pole. Guess I won't plant that 40-ft eucalyptus tree after all laugh

EVERYONE is steering me to 'fast growing' stuff ... nobody seems to realize that everything will eventually have to be removed, and 'fast growing' quickly becomes a maintenance issue.

Related is the issue of access. Where I lived in Reno, power lines and poles were not accessible to the PoCo. Over the years, various sheds, patios, fences, etc. had sprung up, making it impossible to get anywhere near them.

Folks just don't think of such things. Bring it up, and they're full of clever talk about how the PoCo would have to pay for this, and how it's their property, etc. Yet, these same folks will scream when they lose power. Somehow it's the PoCo's fault that their trees are keeping the repairs from being made.

Posted By: LarryC Re: Proposal: Make Transfer Switch Mandatory? - 01/10/13 10:54 PM
Getting somewhat political, if I want a transfer switch for my house, I'll get one! "Requiring" it sounds just like the arc fault, GFCI, and Tamper resistant outlets requirements that people complain about being shoved down their throats. People doing stupid things with electricity has been around as long as there has been electricity.

I believe that requiring transfer switches fall under electrical design not electrical safety code. Based on history, the smallest cheapest device which meets the code will get installed.

There are other things I would like to see required before transfer switches.

My $.02.
Yea, what the heck. I'll just make my fortune selling suicide cords over the internet. With the NEC now requiring outdoor receptacles, I won't even need a long cord!

For the audiophiles, I'll use 'monster cable' and gold-plate the plug prongs, price them at a trendy $234.56 each.
There are very few outages here in SoCal, and even fewer that last any extended period.

Most people that own generators here do so purely for convenience instead of necessity.

The individual States that have lots of generators could amend their State Electrical Codes to require a transfer switch, but I don't think it has any business in the NEC.


I have to agree with Electure. If any one wants a transfer switch, let it be a design issue, NOT code. The NJ version of the NEC has a minimal amount of amendments, and I hope it will stay that way!

Reno, you are about right with the $200+ Monster cables.
Reno,

You talk about sheds and decks under POCO wires. Well in some of the northern cities here in NJ the POCO actually run their lines through peoples back yards. I think years ago when this new fangled thing called electricity came through the people didn't want to see the power poles. So the POCO just ran them all through the back yard. That is going to be a big mess no a days to fix and repair problems with the power lines.
Backyard poles were common in South Orange & a lot of Short Hills/Millburn. No bucket access, either a ladder or climb, that is the choices.

Pole transformer replacement was a block & tackle setup, I saw only once in South Orange.
Here in Levittown/Fairless Hills if (when) the transformers or anything the poco owns needs maintained it takes a fight, 10 lawsuits and a bulldozer to clear all of the illegal sheds, pools and fences out of the way. Was cool though after Sandy some of the guys from down south brought a bucket truck that could reach over a house from the street (70x100 lot) and replace the pole and transformer.
John,

I worked in South Orange and Milburn too. I was thinking more of nearer the city like, Secaucus, Richfield, Montclair, etc. It has been a long time since I was in those areas. Now that I am an AHJ, I almost never get out of my 4 towns. Unless I have to go and cover for someone.
I mentioned the After-Christmas power outages we had. Since then, I've learned a few things.

Mainly, I've learned that nearly all my co-workers have the larger portable generators. They assert they had a local electrician involved. They 'tie in' by simply back-feeding a breaker. Their "interlock" is strictly procedural: they manually shut off the main, then flip on the breaker. They 'remember' not to run the clothes dryer or electric range while using the genny. They watch the streetlights to see if the power has been restored.

Nearly all my co-workers not using any sort of transfer switch or mechanical interlock.
Posted By: sparky Re: Proposal: Make Transfer Switch Mandatory? - 02/13/13 12:05 AM
thanks Reno....now i don't feel like such an outlaw..~S~
I certainly understand the concern about back feeding. At the same time, it just adds more costs to construction and its another attempt to "idiot proof" an electrical systems from idiots. It should be a loco enforcement, not a code issue. It is not the premiss of the code. If installed correctly and used correctly, there should be no issue. It's not a design manual. Just the minimal safety requirements. I may be delusional by I still believe in that, even after the AFCI debacle...
Around here the local POCO boys would not tie you back into their system if they heard a genny running. They would make you turn if off before they re-connected you.
© ECN Electrical Forums