Hi,

Is it normal for a house to have a taped up service entrance ? The service entrance both below and above the meter housing is taped on a house I'm trying to purchase. The owner says that her electrician finds no fault with the installation.

-John

While ECN doesn't muck like "how do I do it" type threads, you're instead asking 'does this sound right?'

I've done plenty of service installations. Whether the new or the old one I was replacing, the only places I've ever seen 'tape' (meaning rubber with adhesive) is around the roof jack boot and the splice connection to the power company wires.

If by 'tape' you mean the perforated metal strapping that plumbers use, I have yet to see a power company specification that would allow you to use it. Things need to be firmly anchored directly to the building structure.

Trying to purchase, and the owner says ..... Gee, a property owner talking out their ***? Even lying, maybe? What is this world coming to?

When I was looking at houses last year, the tales I was told would make a statue blush. I was shown houses with major structural failures that 'just needed a little work.' I was shown properties whose titles were defective. I was shown properties where the listing did not match the legal description of the property.

And. yes, I've know 'sweet little old ladies' who had all the ethics of a rabid pit bull with AIDS.

That's why there are 'home inspectors.' For all their faults, there is a real need to have an informed opinion.

BTW ... bet her 'electrician' is lacking in such minor things as licenses. Tell her: Names and numbers, please.

Good afternoon & WELCOME to ECN.

A deteriorated jacket on SEU is an issue, and should be addressed. Wraping it with tape is IMHO not a 'fix'.

Your house inspector should pick this up on the home inspection & write up same.

Depending on what utility company area this is located in, the utility inspectors have the authority to deem it unsafe and inform the owner that replacement is required or the electrical service will be terminated by them.

As an AHJ, I would inform the HO that it is 'unsafe' and requires attention of a NJ Lic EC, along with a permit & inspection.

As it sounds (by your words) that it is old, you may also want to look at the grounding & bonding, and more than likely the panel.

This is not something that should be addressed by 'an electrical handyman', but a licensed professional.

Reno:
You typed faster than me.

I think he means the outer jacket of old SEU.

Put that on the punch list of things you want fixed correctly before you buy the house. That is a contractor job, not a handyman job since they will need a permit to cut the meter seal in most places. It is not a huge deal fixing it but a failure is a fire. There is no overcurrent protection on those wires and nothing to stop the arcing until the power company arrives.

Having worked a large part of my life in real industry, having learned the trade in Chicago, having worked for decades in Reno, Nv ....

What is SEU?

I completly forgot that most places allow it; I've never done a service that wasn't in real pipe. Even now, relocated to NE Arkansas, I just couldn't do my own house with anything but pipe.

The inspector had never seen a GEC in pipe before, either, and I had a very hard time finding pipe wrap tape .... but those are other stories ...

Thanks for the welcome, longtime listener, first time caller.

It sounds like the home owner is not receptive to the idea. But I have to keep pushing it as a concern. The issue that I'm having is that I'm not sure if anyone will flag this as an issue (legally, even though you would think otherwise), but at the same time I'm concerned for the safety issues and want it fixed.

The main panel board is new(er) and does not have any evidence of an electrical inspection. It's only bonded to the water service past the meter towards the street. The water heater does not have a proper jumper installed either and there is no ground rod installed anywhere on the property.

I was looking for an opinion from the forum on the state of this and I'm very appreciative of your responses. The property is thought to be late 50's early 60's construction and there has been obvious updating that was done on the down low. While it all looks neat and orderly, it's like they missed major updates to the codebook.

Thanks again for your responses, they are greatly appreciated.

I also have had the house inspected and the inspector did mention the electrical in his findings while doing the inspection but kinda glazed over it a little. One of these, (Well it works) kinda attitudes. I'm still waiting for his official report.

For the opposing view, I'd argue that if an electrician re-applied the insulation via tape, I'd be hard pressed to write a violation. There is no shock hazard, the water can't get into the meter box through the SE cable and albeit a patch job it's safe.

I would not do it only because it would be a reflection on my standard. If the insulated conductors within the cable showed signs of damage, then I would be more concerned.

The safe bet would be to replace the cable for sure.

What is SEU cable? My understanding is that a long time ago (back in Greg's Time) SE cable used to have an armor on it to prevent people from stealing electricity. It evolved to an un-armored cable hence: SEU (Service Entrance Unarmored)

We've got two discussions going.

On the technical side, you've had responses as to the suitability of the service.

More important is the 'business' side. This is where electricians run from realtors; we know all too well that the 'horrible' things we find will become perfectly acceptable the moment a deal is struck.

The seller isn't about to fix anything; for them, it's all about price- and time. Otherwise, no promises, no guarantees, and complete ignorance will be claimed over every unpleasant surprise. Yup, it's perfectly reasonable to expect YOU to live in a house that's falling down.

Indeed, the discussion begins to resemble the Monty Python skit about the dead parrot ("He's not dead, he's sleeping" ... "But he's nailed to the perch!")

You have to face every flaw with two questions:
1) Is it a deal killer?: and,
2) What's it worth to me?

You need to keep in sight YOUR goals, and be ever ready to WALK AWAY. Right up to the moment when you hand over the check.

Flux:
Please send me a PM or email with the town that this is located in.

Also, if you have a pic of it, put it up here in the photo gallery.

I'll be unavailable here till Saturday nite.

George,

I was under the impression SEU is for "Service Entrance Unilateral" and SER is for "Service Entrance Round"

I thought the "U" meant 'underground.'

You guys are going to make me look it up and prove it, I can tell.

SEU
Service Entrance cable (Type SE, Style U) (Unarmored).

http://www.southwire.com/ordering/glossary.htm

The SEU in the olden days was similar to the old NM, just a little more tar in the paper/fiber wrapping and a thicker coat of the silver stuff.
It was the regular thing for services from the point where the drop connected to the gable end down to the meter, then on into the house. I didn't see many masts or any kind of protection on the cable in Md. Houses are generally 2 story there so the service point was up far enough without a mast.
In Florida the typical house is 1 story, slab on grade so they need a mast.

George:
Perhaps I misunderstood your post above, but are you saying that you would not have any issues with SEU that is taped for its entire length?

I have two pics of SEU that has no outer sheath at all, leaving the neutral spiral exposed to the weather, along with the two (2) insulated hots. The insulation on the hots was/is exposed to the weather & sun, and the insulation designations are unreadable.

Yes the OP stated that the SEU is 'taped' full length in his situation.

This being the case, how could anyone determine the condition of the SEU?? Is the Alum neutral spiral deteriorated from exposure to rain, sun etc.?? Are the two insulated conductors deteriorated/damaged??

IMHO, SEU that has no sheath has reached the end of its service life, and should be replaced.

Can I as Electrical AHJ require replacement? I can advise the owner of an unsafe condition, and reccomend replacement by a Lic EC. I can also request that Fire Prevention pay them a visit, as an 'unsafe' condition could result in a rejection of the CCO Inspection/Approval. Or, as I said above, the utility does write this type of condition as a violation, and can and DO terminate electrical service for non compliance.

If the PoCo was OK with this,I doubt we would ever know unless they had a permit open that had us on site.

Let's see if this link works; this is a pic of SEU at an apt building.

www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/gallery/24/full/380.jpg

John, I could approve a tapped SEU cable depending on the condition of the ungrounded conductors. If they showed evidence of damage, then no, I would not approve tapping as a repair. The problem I see is that water tends to travel inside the cable on into the equipment once the weather resistant outer jacket is violated by the sun and water can travel on into the equipment. There is normally no shock hazard.

I know, weak explanation but it boils down to a job by job decision.

George:

No that is not a weak explanation, it's a good one.

One job at a time!

They always had a drip loop before it went through the wall when I saw the SE runs in Md. It came out of the meter base, went several inches below the wall penetration and then looped back up.
It is not really a code requirement as far as I can tell but it was the trade practice.

Greg:
That's not something that I have seen up here. If it is 'trade practice', I must have missed that day.

Most of the resi services I did over the years were pipe or PVC, and I did not do a lot of resi in my 'tools days'.

Gentlemen,

I want to thank you all for your insights and assistance with this. I posted some photos in the gallery on the update to my service thanks to a local sparky. Thanks Gents.

-John

EUSERC must HATE SEU because I've never seen it out my way in all my days.

BTW, near the coast, SEU is going to possitively dissolve: aluminum corrodes like crazy if salt/ chloride ions are present.

Prove it: take some scrap feeder and stick it in a jar of salty water. Come back in a week and see what it looks like.

Aluminum forms a hard skin when oxidized -- by oxygen. This clear skin is so thin that we can see right through it.

Aluminum does not form a hard skin when oxidized -- by chlorine. It just goes and goes -- like the way rust does not sleep -- for iron/ steel.

Stainless steel works against rust because it also forms a hard skin -- very much in the manner of aluminum.

I was shocked to see no drip loops in that photo. To my way of thinking, water would wick its way into the building, for sure.

FWIW, there is SEU and SER available with 'copper conductors'.

I had the option for copper feeders in one of the quotes that I got, I was not willing to pay four thousand for a new service entrance. But I do not believe it was part of a cable assembly as quoted. May have been individually insulated conductors in a conduit.

-John

IMHO, 4k for a 200 amp, single phase resi service is outrageous. I base that on what I see in the pics you posted.

IF it was going to be RGC, and a 'bentley' panel, it would still be on the high side.

The above is my opinion. The reference to copper SEU/SER was for Tesla.

Out my way EUSERC just doesn't even tolerate SE.

Everything has to be in a raceway, typically the utility instists upon IMC or RMC... earthquakes and such.

In our platted subdivisions, the norm is for underground Service via laterals. This is true even when the ground is rotten -- and brutal digging.

That is surprising. I would think cables and overhead services would deal with earthquakes better.
(flexing vs breaking)

We don't have any so I really don't know much about it tho.

Greg...

The Poco is coming solely from experience.

Underground distribution systems have fault rates trivially low compared to overhead distribution.

That gap has been industry knowlege for generations. It's the primary reason that EUSERC pushes for underground distribution even in residential areas.

When this is done from the very beginning it's quite practical -- going back fifty years.

These days, horizontal boring rigs are making it possible to retro-fit underground distribution in many older neighborhoods.

=====

As you might expect, weather just does not effect underground circuits.

The one area that I know that has issues is Las Vegas. The ground heat is so high there that the rules shift. Local rules generally prohibit underslab circuits -- limiting them to the shortest paths possible for grocery stores and the like. Not uncommonly, the conductors have to be severely de-rated. (#8 being required for 20A circuits and the like -- everything being re-engineered for Las Vegas conditions)

Interesting about the heat thing. I wonder how deep you have to go to find cooler dirt?
I know there are plenty of animals that burrow in the desert out there to stay cool.

The other thing makes sense if the mechanism of failure in the overhead service is broken poles.