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Posted By: Niko Continuous or not? - 05/16/11 06:44 AM
We all know that article 300.14 requires a minimum 6" of free conductor into each box. Is that continuous 6"?

what if it is 3" and one splices another 3". Is that code compliant?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Continuous or not? - 05/16/11 07:25 AM
I always read "free conductor" as meaning an unspliced conductor
Posted By: sabrown Re: Continuous or not? - 05/16/11 02:54 PM
Someone could always misunderstand and think it is not required to be continuous. Given that argument I would then write them up on workmanship.

I believe that most if not all of us (even the engineers and maintanance people) have all had to try and deal with the miraculous "how did they even make the original connections?" receptacle replacement.
Posted By: Niko Re: Continuous or not? - 05/16/11 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I always read "free conductor" as meaning an unspliced conductor


Then at the time of final if you measure and they are short by 1" is the whole job red tagged or you would allow an extension?

I am not trying to argue with you. I want to see how this gets interpreted.

Personally i always use my stripper as a measuring tool and i measure from the face of the box.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Continuous or not? - 05/16/11 05:53 PM
I might not be too hard to get along with if it was just one or two and close to 6" but if the guy made them all 3 or 4" he would be fixing it and splicing an extra wire on would not be acceptable. I have never had it come up. Usually this is seen on the rough and I saw the wires being longer most of the time.
If they did come up with a short one they managed to trick me wink
Maybe John, George or Harold will have a better answer for you.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Continuous or not? - 05/16/11 07:00 PM
I have to agree with Gregs response. I check it on rough, and occasionally on final.

Where this arises as a situation.....is on the 'as-built' jobs that show up thru the CCO inspections. The 'as-built' basement conversions that the homeowner supposedly did. Procedure included the power be safed off, & the devices pulled to check the wiring. Then it's a red tag & a strong suggestion to contact a licensed electrical contractor to achieve code compliance. It's a real PITA.

Usually, free conductor length is not an issue with the 'sparkies', but we are all human.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Continuous or not? - 05/18/11 08:25 AM
As a foreman I sometimes encountered idiot apprentices who thought that our rough pulls existed so that they could earn trim scrap.

They ended up getting canned.

Short wires = more expensive work.

Yes, I've even had to re-pull conductors. ( rare )

Short taps = fumbling trim-out -- especially if apprentices.

If short taps occurred during wire pulls/ cable runs corrections were made promptly.

More generally, I never permitted any rough-in or separation to push the envelope of the NEC. Too expensive -- a route to poverty.

ONE example out of many: built up a 5,000kVA transformer room in the rough. Primary at 21.6kV Secondaries at 480Y277 and 208Y120.

Just imagine how many feeders ( 6" on primaries on down to 1.25" and 1" !! ) I allowed for an extra 1" clearance on stubs under the massive panel boards/ distribution sections.

Later, found out that the office had given us numbers in error! They were off by 1" ! I'd made it, though. My design margin had saved 850 man-hours. ( Ripping up the work encased in concrete 4 feet deep to move the pipes back into the room. )

Similar attitudes have saved my bacon WRT transformers, panel boards, the works.

If you are down to shaving inches off at j-boxes -- you are far gone. That's NOT where you make it. ( You can break it there, though. )
Posted By: mikesh Re: Continuous or not? - 05/18/11 10:20 PM
Same rule in Canada and code is from the entry to the box to the cut off point. Homeowners are the worst for shorting splice wire and I have definitely had a few homeowners rewire a large area for cutting the Free conductor. By practice I grab the spliced wires and if the wire nuts are beyond my closed hand it passes. Short of that I get out my tape and check.
Posted By: George Little Re: Continuous or not? - 05/19/11 01:57 AM
I'd like to add my thoughts and experience. If you have a box where you have maybe three NM cables 14/2 w G, you will have 9 conductors that need to be long enough to extend outside the box three inches if the opening to the box is less than 8 inches in any direction. It is common practice to only have one of the G. wires left long to terminate on a device and the other 2 g. wires are spliced along with the long G. wire with a "Buchanan" or a wire nut.

I once had an inspection where the electrician was remodeling a basement that had been wired by a previous homeowner and the electrician cut out an old box and saved it for me. It had 2- 12/3 romex cables and an receptacle in a 1" deep box. I used it for a while in my code classes as this is what "NOT" to do. I don't know how he even was able to do it.

As for splicing a too short wire in a box- I can not find a code reference that would prohibit it albeit a bad practice. It's either splice it or relocate the box or pull new wire. I must be getting whimpy in my old age.
Posted By: twh Re: Continuous or not? - 05/19/11 02:20 AM
Ground wires are conductors, too. Those of use who do remodels appreciate a little length on all the ground wires.
Posted By: KJay Re: Continuous or not? - 05/22/11 02:49 AM
I would agree that it’s sloppy to see short wires spliced to lengthen them, especially on new work, but I also don’t see anything in 300.14 that says the required "free" conductor has to be one continuous length and unspliced.
I believe the idea is to allow enough wire to be able to install and remove the devices, but that can also be accomplished with spliced conductors.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Continuous or not? - 05/22/11 04:40 AM
This is about the only application I see for the Ideal connectors we discussed so recently. I think they would qualify as an 'irreversible compression' type connection.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Continuous or not? - 05/22/11 05:07 PM
I would not let anyone get away with calling any stab connector an "irreversible compression" type connection.
Posted By: George Little Re: Continuous or not? - 05/22/11 11:58 PM
The more I think about it, I'm thinking that the length of conductors is needed for splicing as well as installing devices. So maybe Greg is correct in his statement about the conductors need to be continuous. I'm changing my mind and agree with Greg.
Posted By: KJay Re: Continuous or not? - 05/23/11 03:13 AM
I’m not sure I follow on the irreversible compression connector, is this referring to a GEC or splicing an EGC in a box or enclosure?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Continuous or not? - 05/23/11 03:42 AM
I think we would all try to work with the installer on old work but if this is new construction, I think that wire should be left long enough or fix it.
Posted By: twh Re: Continuous or not? - 05/23/11 05:20 PM
I agree that the wire should be left long enough, but sometimes it just isn't. How far do you go for a quarter inch? Since no one measures each outlet after the device is installed, the rule becomes unenforceable.

Considering the amount of wire that can be put in approved boxes attached to devices, like motor junction boxes, limit switches and track light end feed kits, it's an arbitrary rule.

Inspectors should be satisfied to punish the electrician by making him splice onto the wires. Imagine sitting in a court room when a lawyer produces proof that sometimes you don't even check, but one guy had to remove finished drywall.

If you couldn't defend a decision in court in a high-cost case, you shouldn't go there, ever.
Posted By: mikesh Re: Continuous or not? - 05/27/11 11:47 PM
I certainly enforce the requirement as unspliced conductor. As a rule of thumb I grab the wire and as long as the wire nuts are on the other side of my hand the wires are long enough. If I have to measure it i measure from the inside of the box where the wire enters and there must be 150mm (6")before it is cut off. Les would require the contractor to get the wire stretcher out of the truck ;-)
Posted By: twh Re: Continuous or not? - 05/28/11 01:49 AM
You need to pull the receptacles out of the wall or you don't really know how short the wires are after the installation. I suggest you try one of those 1.5 inch deep boxes on the side of an island - especially if it's a 20 amp circuit.

Does the "fist rule" work on 1 inch deep wiremold boxes too, or is that only 4 inches of conductor?

I've never heard of a written defect notice for wire length in a box. If I ever do, I'll start filing complaints when I see infractions. Our inspectors will welcome the extra work.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Continuous or not? - 05/29/11 02:43 AM
I have seen where the EC will leave the proper amount of free wire at the outlet but the dry wall people come through and cut their wires. I don't see a problem if you have to add a small piece of wire in order to make the 6" rule.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Continuous or not? - 05/29/11 02:44 AM
Oh and on another thought, I ask a question about those new connections from Ideal ( I believe) that shows you that you can add a small piece onto any conductor. My post is out there somewhere.
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