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Posted By: renosteinke Parking Lot Pipe - 12/07/10 05:23 PM
I'd like to describe an installation I saw yesterday, and get your thoughts. I apologize for not having pics, but I'll try to be clear.

The location was a small store, with paved parking completely around the little building. Out at streetside was a pole-mounted sign.

Power to the sign was provided by a circuit run in RMC. The RMC was simply laid atop the asphalt - no straps or anchors. Then the RMC was paved over, sort of.

The new pavement extended about four feet on either side of the pipe, and tapered from the existing parking lot to the top of the pipe. The finished result was an asphalt ramp on either side of the pipe, and the top of the pipe exposed to the sky.

To be fair to the paving crew, you did not notice these ramps when either driving or walking over the pipe. The location is such that a LOT of traffic goes directly over the pipe - yet there is no sign of damage to the pipe.

Would you consider this a proper install? Is the pipe 'supported' as required? What are your thoughts?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/07/10 08:33 PM
Reno:

A clear violation of 300.5 & a red tag.

As to support, I guess the blacktop kind of keeps the pipe in place, but again it's not compliant. I've seem RGC kind of tuched away against a concrete curb, strapped to the curbing, and surronded by debris, but it was a repair that was not permitted or inspected.

I also came upon 3" RGC that was set into a 'speed bump' and the irrigation guy used it for a raceway to cross a private road. LOL!

BTW, I think you could drive a semi accross what you describe, with no damage to the RGC, as long as the blacktop holds up

That's my two cents.
Posted By: frenchelectrican Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 03:07 AM
I will never allow that kind of installment like that and it will be automatique red tag no question asked.

I know I did recall couple spot in Wisconsin some guys got nailed pretty hard and have to tear the blacktop out.

The reason the inspector stated that the blacktop is pretty protisus { bunch of tiny holes } when you get water in there and frezze up it can do funny things below of it.

And the other key reason why that inspector red tagged due the conduit is only 4 inch below top of blacktop and it do get pretty hot in summer time.

I think someone try to find a excuse to not to dig down half meter deep.

Merci,
Marc
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 03:14 AM
It appears that this installation is so ... unique .... that I'll have to get some pics tomorrow. I don't think you can cite 300.5, as the pipe is most definitely not buried.

Stay tuned ...
Posted By: frenchelectrican Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 03:19 AM
I will be waiting for that photo.,,,

Merci.
Marc
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 05:02 AM
If the pipe is under the surface, it is buried.
The only thing that gets you a break is "concrete"
Any other material is just "cover" whether it is dirt, gravel, sand or asphalt.
It would be tougher to prove he couldn't just run it on the surface.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 05:41 AM
That's a failed install...

Traffic'd raceways need to be 24" cover even if they are low voltage runs.

I've seen a California job by illegal immigrant 'electricians' ( couldn't even speak halting English ) wherein they notched the concrete and asphalt - then laid in Schedule 40 PVC and pulled their circuits. A slight film of concrete buried their handicraft.

However, since the location was a Heavy-Duty Long Haul Truck Stop -- somehow I expect those circuits to fail.

As you might imagine the ENTIRE overhaul was un-permitted work. The owners were illegal immigrants, too -- this time from Turkey.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 03:26 PM
John,

Take this scene, with a twist. Someone wants to run an underground service from pole to house. There is a lot of ledge rock and you can't dig deeper than 1 foot. Can you lay the pipe on the ledge rock, cover it with concrete, then put either dirt or pavement over it and still be code compliant?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 03:42 PM
Harold:
IMHO, it will work, however....pole to house (Lateral) may be under jurisdiction of the POCO. As AHJ in that area, it's your call.

Posted By: Niko Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 05:40 PM
Does the code say the pipe has to be buried, or IF it is buried it has to adhere to 300.5.

If it is installed on the surface and it has protection on both sides higher than the height of the pipe, isn't that compliant? assuming a good judgment from the AHJ.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 08:27 PM
If the lateral is under 4" of concrete, extending out 6" on each side it can be virtually right under the concrete. I would still want it bedded in dirt cover before the concrete was poured. From a practical sense the homeowner would still want some dirt over the concrete so they can grow grass.
You end up with ledge at one foot, (2"?) RNC up to about 9" down bedded in fill, 4" of concrete and 5" of topsoil/sod.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/08/10 08:57 PM
Greg hit on the issue: It's tougher to say he can't run the pipe on the surface.

I went back this AM, and with an empty lot and daylight, the installation isn't quite as it appeared to me the other night. I agree this is a real hack job that should have been red-tagged ... for a few different reasons.

I'll post some pics later this evening - say, in about 6 hours. I think you'll see how I was misled.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 01:19 AM
OK, here are the pics, as promised.

I have sometimes wondered about 300.5 - what if, I wondered, you simply laid the pipe in a shallow trough? Since it's not buried, you can't apply burial depth rules. But, would the sides and bottom of the trough meet support requirements? Would the pipe be sufficiently protected?

So, when I saw this the other evening, I thought I had encountered such an installation. Look it over:

[Linked Image from i143.photobucket.com]
(The white vee's point to the trough)

From the end:
[Linked Image from i143.photobucket.com]


Let's look at this as if it were a proper installation. Looking at the entire pipe run, including the parts more distant, convinced me that this was NOT a careful exploitation of a code technicality.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 02:05 AM
Reno:
A blatant of stretching a technicality within the code? Yes!
As I said up above, I would put a red tag on this, and go with subject to physical damage, and support issues. 300.5 thrown in also.
Would the red tag stand? I feel it would.

With the weather conditions we have here (NJ), the first snow, and/or the first freeze/thaw cycle would destroy the 'speed bump' in your pic.

The last parking lot re-feed job was in a fairly good size strip mall, it was done with a Vermeer wheel cutter, 18" to 20" depth, 2" QP bed, 2" QP top of pipe and concrete to 3" below grade for blacktop sub-base and finish layer. Yes, it was 1-1/4" RGC. This was a 'spec' re-feed.

Being curious, what do the source and load look like?

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 03:56 AM
John, words fail me ....

When I went there this AM, my heart was broken. The 'trough' portion of the run is the ONLY part of the run that comes even close to meeting code minimums. Indeed, it's worth a thread of its' own: lack of support, NO anchors, partial burial, exposure to damage, actual damage (I think the raceway is separated at one point), half-hearted repairs, corrosion .... a real hack job.

Now, stepping into the future .... were I given a blank sheet of paper to design such a feed to a pole light ... and considering the various such reeds I've had to repair over the years .... maybe I'd do it like this:

An 'in the ground' box at either end, with a 2" SWEEP (long radius el) exiting the bottom. 2" IMC for strength, pipe wrap tape for protection. Between the box and the sweep, this would put the pipe an honest 30" down. Nice layer of contrasting sand under and over the pipe. Fill with compacted gravel and pave. Individual wires, with a full size ground.

Overkill? Probably - but someone WILL someday have to replace the wires, and the 2" is both big enough and strong enough that it just might survive a number of paving operations. I like the els because they allow for a straight up pull and a straight down feed. Alternate material: Schedule 80 pvc with primer as well as glue on the joints.

Why the boxes? Because the transition to underground seems to always be problematic. They also make for a more forgiving install, should they later add a light or the sign pole gets knocked down.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 03:45 PM
I wonder if that pipe will last through the first snowplowing.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 03:58 PM
Reno:
Your plan sounds like a plan. Over the years, I (EC) did a lot of site lighting, and a lot of site lighting repairs, both on 'old' and 'newer' sites.

Installs used the largest size conduit that 'worked', when into the sonotubes. The remote box was used, if the site conditions/design allowed; and yes...it was a god send for changes.

One of my 'pet' items is on site ltg 'repairs' running RGC exterior of the sonotube base & entering the side of the pole. 410.30 (b)(2)

"(2) Where raceway risers or cable is not installed within the pole, a threaded fitting or nipple shall be brazed, welded, or attached to the pole opposite the handhole for the supply connection."

Interpertation on 'attached' varies by areas. Also, the 'threaded fitting/nipple' goes the same way.

I've seen, flex (sealtite), PVC 40 & 80, EMT, IMC, RGC carflex (smurf), irrigation black PVC pipe, DB, UF & Al conductors just buried. Sch 40 PVC at 6" in planting beds, etc. Best was a 30x30PVC carlon box in a planter bed with 12: of mulch over it that had the cover collapse.

How is the terminations on your 'find'?

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 05:14 PM
John ... you've given me an assignment. I think I'll take some pics around town, and show some different ways of entering a pole.

Give me a week or two; I think this detail deserves its' own thread.

As for the terminations on this 'find?' The pipe originates on the opposite side of the building at a box. I can't reacll whether the box was intended for outdoor use; decades of paint make that hard to tell, and have sealed it anyway.

The pipe exits the lot to a small grassy area, where the pipe is 'buried' under a thick layer of dust and grass clippings. After a short run, there is a 90 to a box on the side of the pole base. Someone has tapped into the box with a length of romex as well - no telling what is going on there.

Snow plows? Funny you should mention that. Closer examination of the far end of the run (as seen in the pictures) show that the pipe had been hit a few times, and those impacts is what probably led to the little asphalt 'ramps' being installed. I think the installer really thought the pipe could simply rest in the expansion joint between paving sections.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 07:21 PM
Snow in Reno?

I always thought that's a warm climate!

I'll take a few pics, as long as I remember the camera
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/09/10 08:58 PM
Well, if colder temperatures can be touted as 'proof' of Global Warming, anything could happen.

LOL

Remember January 11, 2008?
It snowed in Baghdad that Friday morning.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/10/10 02:29 AM
I don't think Reno is really in Reno anymore but Squaw Valley is right up the road. They are farther down the mountain but I bet they get some snow. Probably about like a mid Atlantic state.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/10/10 02:35 AM
Greg:
It's nice that you read ALL the posts!!
Sometimes, I think I post with invisable ink!
We had a half inch snow squal run thru last nite. It's that time of the year here.
Based on Renos pics, it looks really 'flat' where he is/was.
Posted By: frenchelectrican Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/10/10 11:26 AM
Reno;

I have see that kind of crap before and I know last winter in Paris {France} someone did that arrangement simuair to your photo all it took a frontend loader tractor to rip the whole thing out { it pull out with big chunk of ice along the way }.


That was feed quite few parking lot luminaires and knock out about 3/4 of them and they were wired on 415 volts.

I think you should send the photo to the inspecton department to remind them to really watch the area more closer before someone will get hurt.

That kind of set up I see the photo that will pass?? JAMAIS

Whoever install that should rip that out and redo it in correct way.

Merci.
Marc


A side note I know someone mention snow and yeah I have snow in Paris { I am on east side so I will get it little sooner than west side of Paris }
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/10/10 08:33 PM
Busted! You guyswon'tletme get away with ANYTHING laugh

Reno is often confused with Las Vegas, though one is a good 500 miles north of the other. At about 1 mile altitude, it sits right next to the Sierra Nevada mountains - think of them as a mile-high wall of rock on the west side of town, keeping the winter storms at bay. A 'typical' winter 'high' is perhaps 50, with a drop to 20 as soon as the sun sets. It doesn't snow in town often, but when it does, it falls 8" at a time.

However, these days I'm 'temporarily' working in Blytheville, Arkansas- which is about as different from Reno as you can get. Flat even by Illinois standards, the only 'hill' is the freeway overpass, and you have to go to a museum to look at a rock of any sort. Water table here is about 36", as we're right by the Mississippi river. Power lines have been known to break under the weight of roosting mosquitoes. Folks are nice, and do love their BBQ- "don't worry, it tastes just like possum."

I'd change my profile, but I keep hoping the economy will recover, and let me 'go home.'
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/12/10 03:13 AM
Reno:

You could add 'temp. in Ark.' like Marc does when he goes btwn France and Wisconsin! LOL

Thanks for the explanation, yes I did relate Reno Nv to Vegas, but now I know better. Hopefully, the economy rebounds for you, and all the other guys!

Take care & stay safe!!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/12/10 08:33 AM
My wife used to live in Bentonville. She says she bets you are tired of rice.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Parking Lot Pipe - 12/12/10 03:33 PM
Oh, I don't know .... it's just that I keep thinking I'll see a swarm of green helicopters overhead, with Wagner blaring from the speakers on the skids ....

Though - this year, at least - cotton seems to be the crop of choice, with some milo here and there. Plenty of 'allergies' when the planes spray the fields with the latest version of 'Agent Orange' before the harvest.

Two trade-related notes:
First off, I could never imagined the level of hackwork that is routine here. Even at the steel mill, where serious efforts are made to have proper installs, one need not look very hard to find some pretty basic errors.

The other is that, from looking at the statutes, Arkansas is a real contended for having the most demanding requirements for getting any manner of electricians' credentials.

At least on paper, this town nevertheless has a surprising number of licensed electrical contractors. There almost seems there's one on every corner. I don't know how they earn their living, though, as I have not seen any evidence of their work.
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