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Posted By: Niko small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 04:03 AM
Do the receptacles in dining room and pantry HAVE to be on the small appliance circuit or they are ALLOWED to be.

The way that I interpret 210.52(b) is that they have to be on the small appliance circuit.

what is have always done is (2) or more small appliance circuits just for the counter use.

Am i interpreting this incorrectly?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 06:07 AM
Quote
(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(B) ...


They all have to be in a small appliance circuit and that can be more than two. In a practical sense that only means you feed the dining room and breakfast nook with a 20a circuit instead of a 15a and that only serves receptacles in those 210.52(B) rooms.
As long as you have the two 20s on the counter tops and the dining room is on another 20, I doubt most inspectors would bust you for picking up a living room side receptacle on the other side of the peninsula but it is a violation. You can't just go daisy chaining around the room tho.
Posted By: Niko Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 07:09 AM
So, if the dining and living rooms have been served by a 15A circuit i have been violating the code.

Now, if i do install the mentioned room with a 20A circuit, it has to be AFCI.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 08:16 AM
If you have 15a receptacle circuits in a dining room it is a violation. They do have to be AFCI tho.

OTOH a "breakfast room" may not need AFCI.

210.12 says "dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas <need AFCI>"

Is it similar to a kitchen or a dining room?
Posted By: harold endean Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 01:56 PM
Greg,

Here we go with the "SIMILAR" type of room. I think that is very poor wording in the code book.

I believe originally AFCI were made to prevent using extension cords in bedrooms. So why did it need to be on every other circuit in the house?

Now if you pick up a counter top receptacle, can you pick up a dining room receptacle on the same circuit?

Would that dining room receptacle have to be AFCI?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 05:38 PM
If you are doing code minimum yes, that dining room receptacle will be AFCI and you will pick up your counter top on a GFCI behind the AFCI. Cutler Hammer has a combo GCI/AFCI that might be handy here.
The question probably comes with a "great room" design where there is no real definition of where the kitchen, dining room and great room start.
Posted By: Niko Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 08:33 PM
So by doing code minimum install as GREG suggested, install GFCI/AFCI combo unit.

But as a good design, install an additional 20A for the dining room but make sure it has AFCI protection.



Posted By: renosteinke Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 09:32 PM
There's no reason, from a code standpoint, not to just have a separate, 20-amp, AFCI-protected circuit serve the dining room.

Sure, you might set a crock pot on a table ... that's the reason dining rooms are considered as part of the kitchen area ... but I don't see that table as meeting the 'countertop' that would require GFCI protection as well.

There's certainly no requirement that this circuit have anything to do with the kitchen or the kitchen counter. Code simply says you'll have at least two circuits serving the entire area - and that these circuits cannot serve other areas as well.

In this case, the AFCI requirement is certainly a 'curve ball' tossed our way!
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: small appliance circuit - 10/29/10 11:50 PM
Reno:
I agree with you 100%.

As AFCI is fairly new here the DR & pantry is a stumbling block for some guys yet. I had a few say...I'll put the AFCI receptacle in, and it will be 'both' AFCI & GFCI protected.

Most guys run a third 20 amp to the DR & pantry.

Posted By: harold endean Re: small appliance circuit - 11/01/10 02:08 PM
Reno,

Where does it say that a kitchen counter circuit can not feed other areas?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: small appliance circuit - 11/01/10 03:56 PM
You misunderstood my point. I was referring to the code language that says that the small appliance circuit cannot serve other areas.

For example, the OP was describing the same circuit as serving the dining room and the living room. This would be a violation, since the dining room is served by an SABC.

That the kitchen counter circuit might serve the dining room is not an issue; that it might serve the living room is.
Posted By: harold endean Re: small appliance circuit - 11/01/10 05:31 PM
Reno,

OK, say there is a SABC for the counter that then runs to a dining room receptacle. The receptacle on the counter is GFCI, does the recptacle on the same circuit have to be on an ACFI circuit. (Even if they are both on the same branch circuit?)
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 11/01/10 08:00 PM
Short answer Harold is yes. You would need an AFCI breaker on the circuit and GFCI protection at the countertop. If you used the combo AFCI/GFCI you would save a device.
Posted By: George Little Re: small appliance circuit - 11/01/10 08:26 PM
Greg-
I think they don't make a AFCI/GFCI Device. The AFCI device has GFCI protection yes, but not at the 4-6 ma required for people protection. The combo device is one that protects from series and parallel arcs. Maybe I missed something.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 12:19 AM
Harold, it's little glitches like this one which form part of the reason I oppose AFCI's, at least as a code matter. It's also why I have campaigned so long for AFCI devices.

Call it another example of unintended consequences ....
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 02:30 AM
http://store.platt.com/CutSheets/Eaton%20Distribution/Breakers-Residential-ArcFault.pdf

Quote
FIRE-GUARD AFCI can also be equipped
with 5 mA ground fault personnel protection,
providing a residential circuit
breaker that protects against arcing
faults, thermal overloads and short
circuits, and in addition, 5 mA ground
fault protection in one integrated design
Posted By: George Little Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 02:59 AM
Thanks Greg, I'll check it out.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 03:10 AM
As far as I know CH is the only company doing this but it is not surprising since they invented the AFCI in the first place. They were also the driving force behind 210.12 and I bet they were thinking ahead to a time when all circuits will be AFCI, even the traditional GFCI outlets.
There is no real hardware problem why AFCIs need to protect at 30ma, it is just as easy to make it 5ma but you get more nuisance tripping.
Posted By: KJay Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 03:28 AM
Something I’ve been wondering about for a while regarding those AFCI/GFCI breakers is that according to the C/H catalog, they apparently are only available in a branch feeder type cb. I also noticed this discrepancy on their website as well.
In theory, wouldn’t this mean they couldn’t be used, since the combination type AFCI cb’s are required as of 01/08?

I this possibly just a typo in the C/H catalog and on their website?
Posted By: harold endean Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 03:40 PM
Reno,

I was also anti AFCI because I am not sure how well they perform. I still hear many EC's complain that the ACFI's are falsely tripping. (I don't know if there is truth to their statement either or if there really is a true problem with the circuit.) I also do not like how the code is being driven by the manufactures of equipment. I have stated more than once, that no matter how idiot proof we try to make our houses, someone will kill themselves and the code will get changed. smile
Posted By: George Little Re: small appliance circuit - 11/02/10 08:28 PM
Greg and all- Just had an email with Don Iverson, the NEMA rep in our area and talked to Cutler Hammer and indeed they have an AFCI/GFCI breaker with a trip of 4-5 ma, that's the good news, the bad news is they only have it in the branch circuit variety and not in the combination variety that is required by code now.
Posted By: KJay Re: small appliance circuit - 11/03/10 03:31 AM
So, I guess the next question is where would the branch feeder type AFCI’s be acceptable to use.
For replacement purposes?
If not, I can’t see any reason for them to even manufacture these anymore.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 11/03/10 03:44 AM
They may just be working off the existing stock while the new one is in the pipe. There may be "the next big thing" still working it's way through B test. The code really han't created the need yet. When kitchens and bathrooms go on AFCI, I bet these new ones will be out there.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: small appliance circuit - 11/03/10 01:24 PM
In days like these, it's hard to remember that one essential element of law is that folks be able to know, with certainty, just what the law is.

Forget the opposition to the AFCI; nothing has made the AFCI issue more confusing than the existance, within such a short time, of two distinct types of AFCI.

Compare this to the major upgrade there was a few years back on GFCI's. There was no code change; rather, the new ones were quietly introduced and the old ones no longer made. All it took was a change in the testing standard, all done somewhere behind the scenes.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: small appliance circuit - 11/03/10 06:52 PM
The real problem with AFCI is the amount of black science surrounding it. A GFCI has a simple performance standard and it is easy to test. AFCIs are sold on confidence alone and there is no real performance standard. Each manufacturer has it's own proprietary design that uses a secret method to decide whether the arc it sees is a fault or a normal operating situation. The different "classes" of AFCIs are just in the opinion of the manufacturer.
As far as I can tell, they tell the NRTL how to do the test then the NRTL does the test and lists the product.
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