Can someone help me with a link to a site for the wire used for neon signs. More specifically GTO wire suitable for wet locations. Thanks
Are you looking for a source or a technical specification?
My original not was not very helpful
This is a better one.
http://www.paigeelectric.com/specs/980270%20Sleeveless%20III%203-1-10%20spec.pdfCall or Email the folks at the bottom and I bet they can help you.
Looking for technical specifications. Suitable for wet locations? UL Listed? Does it need physical protection? Can or must it be installed in a raceway? does it need a supplemental bonding conductor?
I poked around several sites and I am not really finding anyone who really says that in any definite form.
I bet if you send an Email to the Paige guys they will send you the information tho. These guys are usually pretty good about knowing their products.
George:
Reviewing the link Greg provided above, the majority of your questions are answered.
Physical protection protection is going to be your call, dependent on the specific install.
Raceway is not required by the mfg spec sheet (link), but agian, it may be your call, based on NEC Article 600.
Supplemental bonding conductor? Again that's going to be your call.
Neon (field installed) is a difficult animal for AHJs. There are a lot of details that are unique to the job, and I have a current NEC handy.
As Greg mentioned, I'll second the comment that the guys a Paige are great, as I used there local office/dist ctr here many times as an EC.
Okay Greg and John, I just sent them an email asking for some documentation on whether or not it was Listed for use in a wet location. Their web site says it is moisture resistant but that's hardly the same. I'll let you guys and the BB know what happens.
I did a bit of reading and the consensus is there are listed wet location assemblies. The parts have to be evaluated together similar to a fire rated wall. I bet Paige has some detail drawings of how to put their parts together in a wet location. The GTO itself seems to come in several varieties, some with an integral sleeve. The U/L marking guide says it will say that right on the jacket. I get the impression the problem is not the wire, it is the penetrations and terminations.
Here's what I have so far:
"George:
I am sending to you either today or Monday the complete UL Standard
for Safety UL 814 that will answer all your questions concerning the use and
testing of listed GTO. As I told you on the phone, if you would like I
would be more than happy to do a 30 minute seminar on LED signs and the
proper wiring of such. Just need to have 2 weeks notice to set up the
travel."
Fretwell, was correct the GTO guy is very helpful. I'll have my answers soon and will report to this Board
This is what UL says:
Hi George,
GTO is not Listed for use in wet locations. See Gas Tube Sign Cable (ZJQX) located on page 446 in the White Book. GTO has to be used in Listed signs and in conduit/raceways. Inside a outdoor Listed sign would be considered a damp location. There is integrally sleeved GTO that has been UL Classified for use with specific neon boots or splice combinations that when used together can have a damp or wet location rating as identified on the Classification Mark. The product category is Sign Components Classified for use with Specified Equipment (UYTA), located on page 380 in the 2010 UL White Book. You may also find some of the cable and boot enclosure combinations made by the same manufacturer that may be suitable for wet or damp locations Listed under Sign Accessories (UYMR).
I hope that helps.
Best Regards,
Tom Lichtenstein
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Regulatory Services
Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Northbrook, IL
George:
Do you think the key to your quest for details basically goes back to 'brand xxx GTO with integral sleeving, and brand xxx components can create a damp/wet location neon wiring method?
Out of curiousity, does Paige have the 'accessories' or only the cable?
A sign trade source around my area is N.Glantz & Sons, basically if they don't have it, or can't get it, it's not destined for a sign shop.
John I agree with you. The problem is some, not all, haven't a clue on this method of installing GTO properly in a wet or damp location. All they know is GTO wire is not suitable for a wet location and based on the UL information they would be correct. Now it can be made suitable by using the proper methods of installation.
George:
I don't know the particulars in your area, but I do know that the 'neon guys' that show up over a weekend are real bad boys.
Horror stories abound! Permits? Ha! Code? Ha
"It's only miliamps"!!
Heck, that's only the tip of an iceberg, and I'm only on interior installs.