ECN Forum
Posted By: Niko Receptacle in a pool house - 09/09/10 11:56 PM
I have a client that has 160 SQFT pool house with a bathroom. I said the way that I interpret the code, a GFCI protected receptacle is required within 3' of the vanity in the bathroom. The bathroom fits the definition stated in the code.
Of course the bathroom doesn't get used on regular bases.


what are your thoughts?

Thanks
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 01:37 AM
Basin and one other specified fixture it is a bathroom.
GFCI required.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 02:22 PM
If the bathroom doesn't get used very often, it's still a bathroom and needs the GFCI.

Kinda reminds me of a Production Manager I worked with at Zenith. He had a room that needed to be wired to be explosionproof but he argued that he only used it once a week. In the interest of saving money (being cheap) he wanted me to see if there was a way to make it "semi-explosionproof".

That was quite a while ago and I STILL get a chuckle out of that question.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 03:19 PM
MUST a detached pool house on a residential property be considered under the rules that apply to 'residences?'

After all, a bathroom in a commercial location, or a 'public' bathroom, are not required to have the receptacle.

Design factors: As a general principle I'm in favor of having a receptacle; they always turn out to be handy, often for the most unexpected reasons (think of how 'wheelchair ramps' have helped the UPS guy!). Yet ... bathroom ... pool ... pool equipment ... chlorine fums ... such a receptacle might be nothing but a maintenance headache.
Posted By: George Little Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 05:29 PM
I agree with Reno, receptacle is optional, that is unless it's on the plans.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 06:17 PM
Any receptacle in the bathroom "area" of that building would require GFCI. The open question is only whether you need a receptacle next to the sink.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 07:28 PM
Reading the NEC definitions, IF this pool house is detached from the dwelling unit, I would have to say no receptacle is required.

The 'pool house' does not qualify as a dwelling unit, in and of itself. The same would apply to a detached garage (man cave) with a bathroom, unless it had all the items within the dwelling unit definition.

Now, from a design side, why not install the receptacle with GFI? Although Reno leans toward the GFI being a maintenance issue, it sure may prove to be a convenience item.


Posted By: renosteinke Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 09:05 PM
Thanks for the support .... with this professional group, it's always an accomplishment when one post makes the 'conventional wisdom' do a 180!

Hotline, it's not that I 'lean' one way or the other. Rather, it's the result of an article (of which I was generally quite critical) that brought to my attention the problems GFCI's have with corrosion ... especially when located near pool equipment.

That article described many GFCI's that failed in the 'power on' mode due to corrosion of the innards. What the article failed to stress (among other things) is that all the failed units pre-dated the latest, more robust versions.

Along the lines of that article, though, I might consider the use of "WR,' 'corrosion rated,' or remote located (in the panel) GFCI protection.

An awful lot depends on the specifics of both the job and the customer. These design choices are why we get the big bucks laugh
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 09:29 PM
Reno:
FWIW, the comm pools at the country clubs I worked at, I used Hubbell Spec Grade GFI devices, and never had an issue.

Yes, the 'resi' grade have issues, the 'cheap' resi grade have issues...

When the $$$ make sense to the client, that's where the big bucks used to be.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/10/10 09:57 PM
I am sure if you asked the customer, they were expecting to get some receptacles out there. Code minimums are interesting for academic conversations but in the real world I doubt they are that relevant. If these people have a pool house, they are going to be expecting some creature comforts.
Because of the usage I would want to see GFCIs everywhere and cite it as all being a bathroom "area".
You are going to have wet people with bare feet walking around in there.

Posted By: Niko Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/11/10 05:29 AM
If it is up to me i would put one in there. And that is great idea for it to be CR (corrosion resistance). I agree that it will probably get used.

From a code perspective, the bathroom fits the definition but it is not inside a dwelling unit.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/11/10 03:49 PM
Niko:

You are 100% correct, the bathroom fits the definition, but it's not within the dwelling structure....IF it's a free standing structure. The receptacle is not NEC required.

Along the lines of Greg's comment, those with 'pool houses' (cabanas) usually desire a lot of creature comforts, and IMHO an upsell for a dedicated circuit & a GFI recept should not be an issue.





Posted By: Niko Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/12/10 02:23 AM
Thank you all for your comments.








Posted By: harold endean Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/13/10 01:32 PM
Greg,

If anyone is worried about dampness being a problem with GFI receptacles, they could use those new ones type that are Weather Resistant, couldn't they? smile
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/13/10 05:12 PM
I would only be concerned with dampness if this was outdoors.
A cabana should not be any wetter than a bathroom in the house.
These days, if you have an outdoor GFCI, I would use a dead front under a snap cover and use separate WR receptacles under the in use covers. Personally I only use "in use" covers in places that will have cords plugged in unattended at my house and "come and get me copper" but my house is old enough that I could say it was existing when the universal in use cover rule was imposed.
I do still have the in use cover on the new outdoor receptacle I put in with my addition but it is under cover and doesn't really get that wet.
Posted By: George Little Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/14/10 03:46 AM
Hey Fretwell, This only proves what I suspected all along your a rebel. Ha Ha Ha
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/14/10 04:32 AM
Yeah, I even used some unlisted, home made, Stainless Steel RNC straps on my boat lift (after the Carlon man told me U/V protection was not in the listing standard so they didn't use it).
I'm a wild man, you can't stop me wink
Posted By: mikesh Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/14/10 11:26 PM
Hotline
Another little NEC CECA difference is revealed.
Accessory buildings associated with a Dwelling unit are subject to the rules of a dwelling unit. So the poolroom of an apartment building is not but the pool house of a house is.
No outlets are required at sinks of commercial buildings in the washrooms but they are required at the sink of all washrooms in house and the outbuildings too.
Of course you probably could not build a pool house and pool on a property that did not also have a house on it either. We judge these according to the legal descriptions of the property or structure. A live work occupancy might be considered as a commercial/residential property.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/15/10 01:19 PM
Mikesh:
Yes, there are differences on either side of the dividing line.

IMHO, a GFI receptacle should be installed in Niko's situation, but as I said, by the letter of the NEC, it's not required. That, again in my opinion is a poor design choice.

Personally, I have not had any instances (as EC or AHJ) of any pool cabanas/houses not having a GFI at the vanity/sink.

We also do not require (NEC) GFI receptacles within restrooms of comm structures; but if they are installed by design, they must be GFI.

Pool clubs, HOA pool structures for the most part have GFI receptacles in the restrooms/locker rooms. We (NJ) do a mandatory annual comm pool inspection, which includes checking GFIs and pool bonding.

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/15/10 03:20 PM
I haven't seen a discussion like this one, that so clearly illustrates the difference between 'design' and 'code,' in a very long time.

There are many tangents to follow: the proper role of codes, the concept of 'code minimum,' and - perhaps most important - making the customer understand the value your proper design choices -down to the materials you select- add to the job.

This detached pool house is a case in point. While 'code' may not require receptacles either inside or outside the structure, I have to think pretty hard to imagine a situation where a couple receptacles would not come in handy. I mean ... do we really want to have to run 200ft. of cord to power the hedge clippers?

In practical terms - and you'll not find any mention of this in any codebook - I'd have to look at the bathroom and ask: are folks likely to be changing clothes in here? If they are, then there will likely be a desire to use a hair dryer- so a receptacle would make sense.

We also tend to assume that the building will also shelter the pool machinery. While a reasonable guess, I have seen such 'cabanas' that had no power at all (and only cold water showers). I can't, in good conscience, insist on the effort that bringing power to the hut would entail.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/15/10 04:40 PM
Once we get into design issues this could quickly degrade to the shed discussion and we would be talking about 100a feeders. wink
I agree the code is silent on any required outlets.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/17/10 01:44 PM
John,

In the HOA pool houses, do you check the GFI recptacles in the bathrooms?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Receptacle in a pool house - 09/17/10 03:10 PM
Harold:

Yes, I do! And if there's any issues, that is the time to have corrections made. IMHO, the annual pool inspections are about life safety. An inoperable GFI is a LS issue. There usually is no resistance for requesting repairs.

© ECN Electrical Forums