Another question about AFCI's - 03/03/10 01:53 PM
If you have electric baseboard heat in a bedroom, does it need AFCI protection? How about if that electric heat was in a kitchen? Basement? Garage?
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/03/10 07:06 PM
Only if it is 120v 15 or 20a and this is not limited to bedrooms. (NEC, I am not sure what New Jersey says)
As I read it you would not need AFCIs in basements and garages unless they were converted to one of the uses in 210.12(B). I guess the open question is what is the trigger that changes a basement (or garage) to a recreation room? We had the same issue, going the other way with GFCIs for all of the 120v 15/20 receptacles. In any case you would need one or the other.
As I read it you would not need AFCIs in basements and garages unless they were converted to one of the uses in 210.12(B). I guess the open question is what is the trigger that changes a basement (or garage) to a recreation room? We had the same issue, going the other way with GFCIs for all of the 120v 15/20 receptacles. In any case you would need one or the other.
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/03/10 10:32 PM
In keeping with questionable application of AFCI requirements, another dwelling unit AFCI problem you will no doubt be dealing with is wet bar locations in finished basement recreation/game rooms.
Without permanently installed cooking facilities, these areas don’t meet the criteria of a kitchen based on the definition in Art.100 stating, "an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking', so all 15A and 20A 120V branch circuits, including any serving the counter top receptacle outlets, are required to have AFCI protection in addition to GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets within 6-Ft of the edge of the sink. The lighting branch circuit would also be required to have AFCI protection.
Cutting lime wedges and blending margaritas might not count as food prep, but a permanently installed, cabinet mounted microwave oven for melting the cheese on your nachos may be able to qualify as cooking equipment.
I do recall some controversy in the past over whether a microwave oven, permanently installed or not, was considered cooking equipment though, so I guess it could possibly be up for discussion.
If this area were classified as a kitchen, then no worries, but otherwise, the issue I have with this requirement is that AFCI's will nuisance trip frequently when certain motor operated cord and plug connected small appliances are plugged in to these counter top receptacle outlets.
Another issue is if I also have a sump pump for this wet bar sink installed below, if it's not considered a kitchen, then AFCI protection would be required for the branch circuit serving this 120V receptacle in addition to GFCI protection if located within 6-Ft of the sink, measured in any direction. An AFCI nuisance trip with a sump full of gray water is a bad situation.
The '08 NEC... it's the gift that keeps on giving!
Without permanently installed cooking facilities, these areas don’t meet the criteria of a kitchen based on the definition in Art.100 stating, "an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking', so all 15A and 20A 120V branch circuits, including any serving the counter top receptacle outlets, are required to have AFCI protection in addition to GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets within 6-Ft of the edge of the sink. The lighting branch circuit would also be required to have AFCI protection.
Cutting lime wedges and blending margaritas might not count as food prep, but a permanently installed, cabinet mounted microwave oven for melting the cheese on your nachos may be able to qualify as cooking equipment.
I do recall some controversy in the past over whether a microwave oven, permanently installed or not, was considered cooking equipment though, so I guess it could possibly be up for discussion.
If this area were classified as a kitchen, then no worries, but otherwise, the issue I have with this requirement is that AFCI's will nuisance trip frequently when certain motor operated cord and plug connected small appliances are plugged in to these counter top receptacle outlets.
Another issue is if I also have a sump pump for this wet bar sink installed below, if it's not considered a kitchen, then AFCI protection would be required for the branch circuit serving this 120V receptacle in addition to GFCI protection if located within 6-Ft of the sink, measured in any direction. An AFCI nuisance trip with a sump full of gray water is a bad situation.
The '08 NEC... it's the gift that keeps on giving!
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/04/10 01:02 AM
Greg:
As far as I know as of right now, we here in NJ are 'to the book' with 2008 NEC 210.12
The havoc is with renovation & additions, not so much with any new resi, which is still really quiet in my town.
Harold has been coming up with some really good questions.
The BB heat is hard wired and 220/240 volt, in most instances that I have seen. That would be exempt. The renovations here fall under our 'Rehab' Subcode, and as of NOW are exempt. The wet bar scenario KJay is kicking around is open for discussion and I'm sure one will rear up very soon here.
To be continued?
As far as I know as of right now, we here in NJ are 'to the book' with 2008 NEC 210.12
The havoc is with renovation & additions, not so much with any new resi, which is still really quiet in my town.
Harold has been coming up with some really good questions.
The BB heat is hard wired and 220/240 volt, in most instances that I have seen. That would be exempt. The renovations here fall under our 'Rehab' Subcode, and as of NOW are exempt. The wet bar scenario KJay is kicking around is open for discussion and I'm sure one will rear up very soon here.
To be continued?
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/04/10 06:21 AM
I should have mentioned that in the dwelling unit wet bar scenario above, if the area doesn't qualify as a kitchen and you have a refrigerator, cooler or kegerator, the branch circuits supplying these would also be required to have AFCI protection.
I believe that based on the definition of an outlet in Art. 100, this requirement could also apply to 120V branch circuits supplying a glass washer or compact dishwasher in this area as well.
I believe that based on the definition of an outlet in Art. 100, this requirement could also apply to 120V branch circuits supplying a glass washer or compact dishwasher in this area as well.
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/04/10 06:58 PM
I haven't looked but I bet Mike Holt has one of his handy dandy charts of where you need AFCI, GFCI or both.
It is not an official interpretation but he usually tries to be right.
It is not an official interpretation but he usually tries to be right.
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/05/10 03:03 PM
Greg,
I guess I should have said 120 volt only when I mentioned the baseboard heat.
John,
I have the EC's asking me some of these questions and sometimes I am not sure how to answer them. I also tell them that this is my interpretation only. You have to ask the AHJ in the town where you are doing the work. See if they have the same opinion.
I guess I should have said 120 volt only when I mentioned the baseboard heat.
John,
I have the EC's asking me some of these questions and sometimes I am not sure how to answer them. I also tell them that this is my interpretation only. You have to ask the AHJ in the town where you are doing the work. See if they have the same opinion.
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/05/10 08:14 PM
Harold, If this is 15 or 20 amp it is a slam dunk, it must be AFCI, just like the smoke detector. If it is 120v @ 30amp, no.
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/06/10 07:59 PM
I have printed (from 2008 Handbook) the entire AFCI requirements, and commentary. I have handed out numerous copies to EC's and Electricians since '08 is now mandatory.
My opinion is "what is says" within the above pages. The tough areas of "Yes or No" will come up soon! Some new resi is starting, as the weather & economy are starting to cooperate.
Harold:
Perhaps one of the powers that be in Trenton could compose a FTO so this issue could be "Uniform" statewide. I know thst's asking a lot, but I still believe in the tooth fairy!
My opinion is "what is says" within the above pages. The tough areas of "Yes or No" will come up soon! Some new resi is starting, as the weather & economy are starting to cooperate.
Harold:
Perhaps one of the powers that be in Trenton could compose a FTO so this issue could be "Uniform" statewide. I know thst's asking a lot, but I still believe in the tooth fairy!
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/08/10 06:09 PM
John,
Do you want to buy a bridge? I have one for sale!
Do you want to buy a bridge? I have one for sale!
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/09/10 12:33 AM
Harold:
I don't want to 'jack' the thread, but..
A 'bridge' here in the toll capital of the USA? Sure, I'll buy it if the price is right; tolls are a real gold mine!! LOL
I don't want to 'jack' the thread, but..
A 'bridge' here in the toll capital of the USA? Sure, I'll buy it if the price is right; tolls are a real gold mine!! LOL
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/21/10 02:05 AM
John,
If you ask Greg from Fla., I think he might have some nice property to sell also. It believe it is near the town of Everglades!
If you ask Greg from Fla., I think he might have some nice property to sell also. It believe it is near the town of Everglades!
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/21/10 02:08 AM
But seriously folks! Getting back on track, So if I install a small electric 110 volt wall mounted electric heater in a bedroom, It WOULD have to be AFCI protected? How about if I install it in the bathroom? Has anyone installed toe kick heaters in the kitchen? Bathroom? Anyone? Is it required to be AFCI?
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/21/10 02:23 AM
All outlets in bedrooms must be AFCI protected
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/21/10 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by harold endean
But seriously folks! Getting back on track, So if I install a small electric 110 volt wall mounted electric heater in a bedroom, It WOULD have to be AFCI protected? How about if I install it in the bathroom? Has anyone installed toe kick heaters in the kitchen? Bathroom? Anyone? Is it required to be AFCI?
Typically they will requred AFCI for it if the code do required it and with 120 volts perament wall heaters yeah you will need AFCI in bedroom but I do not know if they do cover on 240 volt verison IMO I think they do cover it as well.
Toekick heater in kitchen it depending on the voltage of heater it may require GFCI or not
Hardwired heater in Bathrooms .,, 120 volts useally not unless your local code do require it. the 240 volt verison most case useally no unless specfied per manufacter or local code requirement. { no AFCI in bathroom AFAIK }
Merci,Marc
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/22/10 02:12 AM
Harold:
Wall mounted heater, 120 volt, in bedroom....AFCI in new work, not in Rehab
Wall mounted heater, 120 volt, in bath.......GFI, maybe, depending on locations.
Toe kick in bath, 120 volt,...GFI, IMHO, No
Toe kick in kitch, 120 volt,...GFI, IMHO, No
Wall mounted heater, 120 volt, in bedroom....AFCI in new work, not in Rehab
Wall mounted heater, 120 volt, in bath.......GFI, maybe, depending on locations.
Toe kick in bath, 120 volt,...GFI, IMHO, No
Toe kick in kitch, 120 volt,...GFI, IMHO, No
Re: Another question about AFCI's - 03/29/10 01:57 PM
John,
Don't you just love our "Rehab" code!
Don't you just love our "Rehab" code!