I have a question under section 210.12 (B)......Family room,dining room,living room, parlors,libraries, dens,bedrooms,sunrooms,recreation room, closets,hallways, or "SIMILAR ROOMS OR AREAS" can someone define "Similar"?
What about lights in the kitchen? Lights in a unfinished basement? Finished basement? Lights in a garage? Attic?
Well, thereby hangs the tail ...
Mike Holt was first to realize that this list failed to include stairwells. Others at his site also noted that the non-GFCI protected kitchen circuits were also not required to have AFCI protection.
Now you mention the lighting.
As I see it, the code panel said 'outlets' when they were thinking 'receptacles.'
Another possibility is that they wanted to say 'all' without actually saying 'all.' This might explain the earlier limiting of AFCI requirements to bedrooms; at that time, it was rare for a bedroom to have a dedicated circuit.
Who knows? I've said all along that the AFCI requirements, whatever the motive, were 'bad law,' It's no surprise that these issues keep popping up.
When the AFCI requirement first reared its head they were needed for "receptacle outlets". In fact, that's where the Chicago Code still is.
The next NEC Code cycle that was revised to specifically remove the word "receptacle" so that it would apply to all outlets; be they lights, receptacles, hard-wired, or whatever.
I was told that the bedroom receptacle outlets was indeed intended as a starting point. The eventual plan was to included everything in the entire house, but they wanted to start small to see if there were any major issues before they expanded the requirements.
Harold:
I guess a 'prayer room', media room, excersize room, 'office', or basically whatever you want to call the rooms. basically, if it isn't GFI, it's AFCI?
I'm really starting to think that the powers that be in Trenton used their heads when they waited till now to adopt AFCI here.
Let the debate continue....
Let the debate continue....
sure, if you can stomach cyclical mobius strip logic.....~S~
John,
My friend Tony wrote to Suzanne and asked her about the Rehab code and she e-mail him and I back. I sent you a copy of his letter and her reply. I am not sure if I sent it to your home or work e-mail.
Reno/ghost,
I wrote to my state and complained about the new '08 NEC. I have been in this business for 30 years or more. This has to be the worst code change that I have ever seen. There are too many manufactures who sit on the code making panel. They all keep pushing for their products to become law. This way it sells more products. How much more will AFCI add to the price of a new house?
I am also getting questions from EC's about AFCI protection for pool wiring and HVAC wiring. I ask why pool wiring. They say it is because it goes through a bedroom. So since it goes through a bedroom, it must be AFCI protected.
maybe the Q to ask is if there's any rop's in the works asking for a clarification.....?
~S~
Reno/ghost,
I wrote to my state and complained about the new '08 NEC. I have been in this business for 30 years or more. This has to be the worst code change that I have ever seen. There are too many manufactures who sit on the code making panel. They all keep pushing for their products to become law. This way it sells more products. How much more will AFCI add to the price of a new house?
I am also getting questions from EC's about AFCI protection for pool wiring and HVAC wiring. I ask why pool wiring. They say it is because it goes through a bedroom. So since it goes through a bedroom, it must be AFCI protected.
Harold.,
You did bring up good question related to the pool circuit that have to run thur the bedroom.
But if not useation { have a switch or outlet } in bedroom IMO it do not have to be AFCI at all.
That question will be open answer format due there are few ways to address this situation.
Speaking in my state { Wisconsin } they just start enforeing AFCI not too long ago so it will be instering how it come out. In France we don't have any AFCI devices yet but heard talking about it but nothing in written yet.
Merci,Marc
As far as the wiring for a pool or something else going thru a bedroom I really don't see the need for the AFCI. It is not serving any of the area requiring AFCI protection. What is the kitchen or bathroom circuits went thru the bedroom? Could the AHJ reasonably expect to now require AFCI protection?
This reminds me of the closet lighting that was exempt during one of the early requirements for AFCIs in the bedrooms. I also remember that switches in bedrooms for floodlights outside did not require AFCI protection.
Pools: No junction,No outlet,No AFCI.
Switch for the outside lights,If the neutral is in the sw. box that's an 'outlet.AFCI.
I don't see the need for AFCI for circuits running through the bed room either. The contractors out there are telling me that the teachers who give us our continuing ed courses are saying that. The logic was, if you protected bedroom circuits with AFCI, then you should protect ANY wire running through the bedroom with AFCI. Again, this was their logic, not mine.
If you put a nail through a piece of romex (or any other arc-fault in a wall), it doesn't matter whether that circuit was feeding a bedroom receptacle or a bedroom light or just passing through- it's going to start a fire in the bedroom wall.
Limiting this to outlets doesn't make a whole lot of sense- if they wanted to protect receptacles and cord-related arc faults, they should have said receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to all conductors in bedroom walls to reduce the risk of people overcome by smoke in their sleep, they should have applied it to all conductors in bedrooms. Same thing for whole-house protection I'm at a loss as to what the real intent of this code is, and why it's worded the way it us.
Steve:
I agree with your logic! We have to get away from 'bedrooms' as there are other areas that require AFCI.
IMHO, if anyone is concerned (my word choice) of AF, there is no reson that the whole house could be AFCI, although it is NOT presently mandated by code. AFCI is 'new' here in NJ, as of 10/06/209 when '08 was adopted without an AFCI amendment, as in prior code cycles. That said, there is a project that had AFCI in the BR's only, by spec, and I'm not aware of any issues there to date.
We have a lot of 'growing pains' to go thru here in NJ with AFCI's, and as I have said to Harold, I'm not missing being an EC!
Steve,
You should know what the real intent of the code is. It is to sell more manufactures equipment.
That is why all of the code changes. This is just my opinion.
yeah well, i stated a very similar case years ago here. As we in Vt were a code cycle ahead of the nation re; 210.12
years later, i log on to find people who sound just like i did back then
big surprise eh?
i guess it's like any other issue, it's gotta land on people's front doorstep before they can really see it for what it is
~S~
Sparky:
Amen, brother.
Another case of seeing is believing.
I wouldn't require the feeder to an HVAC or pool running through a bedroom to be AFCI protected, however there are some AHJ's in this state that do. Plus they fail EC's for not installing it.
I wouldn't require the feeder to an HVAC or pool running through a bedroom to be AFCI protected, however there are some AHJ's in this state that do. Plus they fail EC's for not installing it.
How? What code do they reference?
210.12(B) CLEARLY states: ......
"circuits supplying OUTLETS installed IN.....
Then continues on to the percise locations.
Leland,
I agree with you, that the EC should not have failed because there was no ACFI on HVAC systems. However as I said, some AHJ's try to push for somethings that are not in the code book. Most times the EC's will do what the AHJ wants just to keep the job moving. Plus they get paid quicker.
To an extent Harold. at $30+- for a 20A and much more for a 2 pole- and limited MFG- seems to be worth the (polite) discussion.
I would send it for interpretation.
job moving,collecting sooner,understood. But not at a loss of a (most likely insanely tight quote to begin with) profit.
Some times you must stand your ground.
Respectfully.
Leland,
I agree with you and I would have a polite talk with the AHJ about his interpretation of the NEC. If the AHJ doesn't budge, the EC has the opportunity to go to the Construction Board of Appeal (CBOA). However if he does to the CBOA, it will still cost the EC around $100 for an application fee. So the EC is between a rock and a hard place.
Guys:
The AFCI calls and questions from the EC's by phone are rolling in. Yes, different interpertations abound and it seems like there are 'different' code books floating around.
I printed 210.12 from the '08 Handbook, with commentary and the Sq D pic, and I hand it to any EC, foreman, etc., that has any interest. That's what I enforce. No HVAC feeders, No sub-panel feeders, No baseboard heaters, No pool feeder/branch, etc. Not required for service upgrade, or panel change. "Qualified Rehab" jobs don't require them either.
John,
I can live with that! Now tell the rest of the AHJ's here in NJ about that rule and see what you get!
John,
I can live with that! Now tell the rest of the AHJ's here in NJ about that rule and see what you get!