ECN Forum
Posted By: George Little Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 03:43 AM
I guess things will never change. I have a home inspector who invested in that tester that checks for polarity, grounding, GFCI protection AND voltage drop. Since he has paid $300+ for his new tester he is charging $600+ for the home inspection required prior to the sale of the house. When the tester simulates a 10a. load on the end of a 150 foot long, 15a. circuit and it shows a 10v. drop he reports to the customer that there is something wrong with the wiring in the house???? What should I tell this "gentleman" and not risk offending?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 03:57 AM
Ask him if he can get a refund.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 04:06 AM
Tell them...

1) Codes are not necessarily retro-active

But, more importantly...

2) NEC considers voltage drop an FPN, and therefore not enforceable even under new installations.


Posted By: gfretwell Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 06:12 AM
Actually I think that is really a 12a pulse the SureTest uses and I question how accurate that short pulse really is in predicting voltage drop. I would love to borrow one and look at the pulse on a scope to see what it really looks like. For that matter I would like to verify the result with a volt meter and a hair dryer.

I guess it is still not important. They will still be writing these things up on their report along with other "hazards" like "double tapped" QO breakers and calling out old tinned copper wire as "aluminum".

The bottom line is these guys are not enforcing code, they are trying to give buyers a bargaining chip. I suppose a few of them will have to get sued by buyers before they back off.
Posted By: Elec N Spec Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 01:41 PM
Tell the homeowner unless the circuit is feeding a fire pump motor there's nothing in the code that's enforceable. Just pulling your leg a bit but I see no problem with informing all parties that testers like these are limited in their ability to accurately test for voltage drop. Regards…Tony
Posted By: leland Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 02:12 PM
"1) Codes are not necessarily retro-active"

Alot of HI's don't know this, even with that said, they will be 2 cycles behind.

We have all seen it. "those kitchen 2 wire rec need to be GFCI"... "The bathroom can't share the hall lights"...etc.. (Not bad observations from a safety point)
But then they walk right buy the broken ground outside,overlook the 15 twin/mini brkrs and the neuts and grounds dbld up on the busses.

Now we get the call and try to be diplomatic, and explain the real dangers and the lack of knowledge, And justify the service call bill.

This will go on forever.
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 04:23 PM
My mother- "But the home inspector said it was safe."

Me- "Maybe because he's blind. (Mind you this guy passed on the recessed-behind-paneling outlets, but said the house needs to be covered in vinyl for "safety." I think these guys are on commission from the vinyl contractors.)

Her- "The guy was a professional."

Me- "Perfessional is more like it. Those guys only take 6week courses then start charging 100s of dollars.

Her- "What was it that he missed?"

Me- "Two outlets in the traffic light room don't work, the orange cable going to the dryer breaker and the old 50s one going to the outlet, etc."

<You get the idea.>
This is the standard talk between me and my parents trying to explain that something that the "perfessional" is right, is actually wrong, or in the case of asbestos siding, not bad.

Ian A.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 06:45 PM
I took the NACHI test, got a 94 on it and I have never seen an oil furnace or a boiler. I am about $400 away from being a "certified" home inspector. It is not something I am going to do but I was curious.
I talk to those guys over on tyhe NACHI BB and there are some ECs who hang out there trying to beef up their skills but those are only the ones who participate in the training and want to learn. Some are really conscientious and want to do a good job.
I fear a scary number of HIs are just in that business because their old business failed. Florida is starting an HI licensing program but anyone working now will be grandfathered in. Right now, anyone with a $30 occupational license and a flashlight can be an HI, flashlight optional.
If you want to see what the result of that is, I could show you pictures of my kid's house and what the HI reported when they bought it.
Missed items, one room with zero receptacles, served with a romex extention cord punched through the wall
The only light in the under stairs storage space (with the romex cord and plug connected water heater) was a black rubber lamp holder connected to a romex poked through the wall to a receptacle box, no connector and connected to the lamp holder with flying wirenut splices. Unscrew the bulb to turn it off.
All that was fine with the HI but he did note the uneven pavers in the next door neighbor's patio.
He did notice the home made "light kit" in the ceiling fan (a lamp holder, fastened to the hole in the bell with the blank 1/8" pipe plug, pigtail wires through 2 drilled holes). He called it "missing trim".

It was after that when I decided I would find out what it takes to be an HI.
Posted By: EV607797 Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 08:55 PM
Greg:

Please post the report and/or pictures. I would really enjoy reading it. One of these guys cost me over $500.00 during the sale of my last house because I had a twin 15/15 breaker in my panel and he indicated in the report that this is a 30 amp circuit requiring #10 wire. Due to tight settlement constraints, I just gave the buyers the money to "get it fixed" on their own.

Funny thing (or I should say NOT so funny) is that it was in a sub-panel in my shed. They could completely rewire the whole thing, including the 10' of 10/3 UF to the panel for half of what I gave them!
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Home Inspectors - 11/21/07 11:50 PM
Greg: Pictures please!

Ian A.
Posted By: Jim M Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I took the NACHI test, got a 94 on it and I have never seen an oil furnace or a boiler. I am about $400 away from being a "certified" home inspector. It is not something I am going to do but I was curious.


Greg,

I think I got a 94 or so when I took the same test with a similar amount of experience with mechanical systems. But I have seen those heating things in a basement.

I have a miners light and a flashlight and a ladder too. Want to go into business? It would be a multi-state franchise. Look out East Coast he we come. Whoop Whoop.

This message has not be brought to by You know who. LOL
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 01:42 AM
I often watch one of the HI sites, and there are three attitudes that I see with alarming frequency:

A) "I don't know anything about this, but it just can't be right;"

B) The corruption inherent in being absolutely without any check or restraint upon ones' "power;" and,

C) An almost gleeful desire to cross over into offering opinions about pure design issues - even as far as critiquing the paint scheme.

About all you can do is say "He's wrong. There is no problem. I have the license to offer an opinion on this subject. He does not."
Posted By: Jim M Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 01:49 AM
Don't forget the attitude that Code compliant is not good enough.

Even if you say there is no problem the homeowners will have the work done just so it won't torpedo the sale.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 03:40 AM
George;

Ask "What is the Service Voltage at the time of the test".
(Voltage at the Service Equipment)

Then have the HI apply the math, to obtain the Voltage Drop Percentage.

Then ask for "Calibration Certification" for the Tester.

Then ask to have the test performed at the following loads:
* 5 amps,
* 10 amps,
* 15 Amps.
With the results from the above 3 tests, average out the Voltage Drop - as applied from the Service Voltage at the time of the tests.

Then point out the FPN is only suggestion, which says 5% total is "OK" for a "Suggestion".

Then ask for some legal documentation which points out the hazards to persons, where the Voltage Drop is concerned.

By this time, the HI should conceed, and stop pushing "Bandini Code*" as something enforcable.

Scott

BTW "Bandini Code*" = Code which has the value of Bandini Fertilizer:
  1. Works best when spread across Lawns - as will cause the Grass to grow much greener,
  2. Statements should be packaged under the name "Bandini", and sold in the Lawn & Garden section of Home Improvement stores,
  3. Code article has a Male Bovine Fecal Matter level of > 99.999%


smile laugh eek
Posted By: leland Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 05:37 AM
I concede, They meen well. I could tear a house apart.. But I will be very week on some items. No expert on the boilers,(plumber friends do them all different). Carpenters have their own way aswell.

But a general idea and a good base of resources (not DIY sites) You can do a good job.

"You are only as good as the people you suround yourself with" (Ronald Reagan:)
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 04:23 PM
This is the closet light. (not cited)

http://esteroriverheights.com/electrical/closet_light.jpg

This is the water heater in that closet (not cited)

http://esteroriverheights.com/electrical/water_heater.jpg

This is the "missing trim" on the fan light

http://esteroriverheights.com/electrical/fan_light.jpg

I can't find the picture of the bootleg receptacle in the room with none but imagine a handybox screwed to the baseboard with that grey Romex punched through a wall and plugged into a receptacle in the next room.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 06:48 PM
Well, it's a good thing the HI has his priorities in order laugh

Following the HI forums, it does seem these guys have a real love of expensive, fancy things with lots of blinking lights. Customers also get real impressed by such gadgets. I almost want to accuse some meter makers of deliberately exploiting this with their giga-dollar briefcases of weird and unusual test equipment. laugh

The trouble with these things is that they provide not facts, but 'factoids.' That is, a fact that may or may not have any relevance.

"Voltage drop" is such a thing, that means nothing by itself.
If you have a gradual drop over the length of the circuit, there's no problem. If all the drop occurs at one point .... then there's likely a problem that needs fixing.
If you have 10% drop on a supply voltage of 128 (common in new tracts), you still have plenty of volts for any appliance. Knock even 5% off a 108v supply (not rare in older cities), and you're damaging things.

We've had a number of discussions about HI's; some have become so passionate that they had to be edited. I suppose that they're a necessary evil -having seen some of the crap 'upstanding citizens' try to foist on purchasers- but they can't walk on water (last I looked).

Ultimately, it comes down to 'who's the authority.' That's where you make clear that the HI is but a well-meaning amateur, and your opinion outranks his. You have the license, and he does not. It is, as George Bernard Shaw said, far easier to be critical than correct.

Examine things yourself, form your own opinions, and let them pound sand if they don't like what you say.
Posted By: walrus Re: Home Inspectors - 11/22/07 09:07 PM
It took me 19 minutes to get an 85 on NACHI home inspector exam. TF
© ECN Electrical Forums