If the circuit is GFI protected and not over 20 amps, can I still just go 12" on pool wiring? In the burial depth table in the pool section, it doesn't say anything about it. Thanks Steve...

Everything but the underwater pool light must be 5' away from the pool so the normal rules apply.

Greg, I'm talking on the depth of the trench, not the distance from the pool. In residential, the trench can be minimum of 12" deep if it is GFI protected and not over a 20 amp circuit. I was wondering if that same rule applied on pool wiring, since the chapter on pool wiring has it's on depth table, and it don't say anthing about the 12" rule. Thanks again, Steve....

You use 680.10 (18" for RNC) but that is not usually a burden since the pool light(s) will usually be the only equipment that is required to be wired inside the 5' zone. This will be >18" deep where it goes into the pool wall so it is not really that hard to keep it 18" for 5 feet. Once you get outside the zone you can ease it up to 12". Since you are pulling a #8 and a SJOW cord you don't want many bends anyway. I don't know any AHJs who think "Where space limitations prevent wiring from being routed a distance 1.5 m (5 ft) or more from the pool ..." refers to anything but wiring supplying pool equipment.

I am reading 680.10 ('02 NEC) and it tells me that if the wiring is within 5 feet horizontal of the pool and it is underground the wiring methods do not include UF cable. If you are beyond 5 foot then the rules of 300.5 apply.

UF is not really recognized for any pool equipment is it? (no insulated EGC)
All the guys I know just say "no" to any wiring that is not necessary for the pool to be inside the 5' zone. The pool digger usually enforces that rule with his backhoe anyway. With the possible exception of a power cover I can't think of any other "pool" equipment that will be there besides the light.
I guess the question is whether you wire before they backfill the shell. Even if it is after, this is fresh fill, should be easy digging. On my pool I did go "after" but that was mostly to avoid stress on the plumbing that I did at the same time.

Greg- I agree with you on the wiring in the 5 foot zone being only pool related but every once in a while I've run into a need to have wiring non pool related run in that zone due to side yard or other space limitations and I don't know what he had but if he had to run in the 5 foot zone it would have to be in conduit.

Greg- I just had a thought about the power for fiberoptic lighting for a pool. It is not required to be in a raceway. But it could be in the 5 foot zone and as such would have to be in conduit. It comes as hard wired and as cord and cap connected. If the latter it would have to be GFCI protected.
If it were hard wired then it could be in UF and possible not need GFCI protection I think???

How do you approve an above ground light inside the zone by code? (not "underwater")
The only time I have seen fiber illuminators they get installed outside the zone and "fibered" in. That makes everyone happy so the contractor does it that way. He gets to sell another few feet of fiber too. If you are inside that zone with a light, I am really looking for something that looks like 680.23. The same thing goes for rope light, landscape lights or anything else. That is the advantage of fiber, you can put your illuminator "out there" and still pipe in light for borders, accents, spots and anything else you would have done with rope, Malibu or whatever.
I really can't think of any pool equipment besides a light, and maybe a power cover, that needs to be in the zone.

Actually not even the power cover. That electrical equipment needs to be 5' away.

Greg- I just read 680.10 again and I now agree with you. The article clearly says stay out of the 5 foot zone unless you have to be in it. (my words). So the only reason you would have to be in the 5 foot zone is to connect a conduit to a niche or connect a conduit to the motor of a cover. I yield to your correctness.

Greg- Since you see a lot of pools, do you agree with the statment that a fiberoptic light can be powered by a branch circuit wired in UF cable and not need GFCI protection? Of course it would have to be 24 inches deep.

As long as the illuminator is 5' from the pool I think 300.5 applies so the UF could be 12". If it is cord and plug you must still make a case that this is 10'+ since 680.22(A)(1) specifically says "directly related to the circulation and sanitation system" when it talks about the way you can have a receptacle between 5 and 10 feet. All others shall be 10' or farther 680.22(A)(2) ulless you can really make the restricted space test in (4).

As for GFCI on your illuminator you are guided by 680.22(B)(4) since this is still a "lighting outlet"

I don't think I will ever install a pool.

It is far to complicated.

Greg and George, it's nice to learn something from a couple of professionals...thanks.

Bob

Pools are different but I don't think it is really that hard once you get the basic concepts down. I do agree the last code cycle and the upcoming 2008 will add some unnecessary confusion to things that should be easier to define.

Usually what happens is the pool contractors abnd AHJ decide on how they are going to wire the light and build the grid, then they all get done that way. There are a lot of things in the code that define alternate ways of doing things but 99% of the time it all looks the same.
It appears the pool steelers will be establishing the deck grid when they steel the shell. All the wiring is generally THHN in RNC with a green EGC and they loop #8 solid to create the bonding.
It really looks pretty simple once you see it happen.

Greg here pool installers can not touch wiring...unless they have an electrical license...any bonding will need to be inspected which requires a permit which requires a license etc.

It just seems with all the changes that it is unlikely the pool installers will be up to speed on what needs to be done by the EC before they proceed to far.

I also would not want to have to explain to the HO why a simple pool wiring job is costing so much.

I guess I can't sympathize with the pool installers who are not qualified to perform the electrical work associated with a pool installation. I am trained as an electrician and an electrical inspector and would not attempt to install the water piping, heater or rebar for a pool. Each one to his own is my motto.

Neither can I, but back 20 years ago when I used to do a pool or two the call would be "Can you wire the pool we just had put in" instead of "Can you wire the pool we are going to put in"

Now the pool installers better make sure an EC is there from the start.

The pool steelers put a few rebar clamps on their rebar and stub out enough #8 wire so the electrician can get to it. They also bond the ladder cups and wet niches. If anything, they are too generous with the #8 they leave hanging out. They have little pigtails of it going in several directions out beyond the deck. The aluminum guys who build the pool screen cage bond their work with one or more of the #8s. The electrician will usually not even show up on site until after the first (shel) and second (deck) 305, when the y put in the raceway for the lights. After the concrete is done and the pool cage is in. The electrician snakes the pool lights into the niches, sets the J boxes, timers, transformers and connects the pump. They have usually run a 1" RNC for the pool from the panel in the house rough. They will snake in the appropriate feeder if this is getting a Spa Link or something. I assume he also verifies that all the things that are supposed to be bonded above ground are but all the underground was already finished and inspected. I know that is not how it is supposed to be done but that is what happens.
I know a lot of Florida inspectors argued with me that that wasn't the way it was supposed to be done but my wife built almost 100 pools in the last 2 years and that is how it went. Nobody said a word unless they failed one of the 305s. I suppose a few of the ECs might have been spot checking the work of the steelers and aluminum guys but they didn't do it very often. I do know the steel crews carried the #8 and a big box of clamps. I suppose the EC still got paid for it.

BTW George, if you saw the bozos that do pool plumbing you would do your own. That doesn't even get inspected in Florida, and you don't need a license to do it. The biggest problem with pools (based on warranty calls) is leaks in the plumbing, although some of that happens when they backfill.

In my pool I went behind the steelers and tied up their joints. They only tied about 10-20% of the junctions. I also put in a bunch more bonding but that was just me. I wanted my screen enclosure to be a faraday cage so it is tied to the pool steel 7 or 8 times around the edge and I also bonded the steel on the bell footer around the deck and the deck steel, years before NFPA said I should. When they bolted the posts for the main beam in, those J bolts coming out of the pads were bonded. I also dragged a #8 back to my spa bonding grid.

I saw a pool with this river flow system...

http://www.current-systems.com/

The system used a 3 phase motor controlled by a VFD fed with single phase power.

The motor was only about 6ft from the pool.Wiring to this motor could be located in the 5ft zone.

This system creates a steady flow of water for the swimmer.

Anybody seen one yet?

shortcircuit

I've seen about three of them here in Michigan Pete, all of them fit the discription of "Riverflow" and they have the name "Swim Jet". They have all been indoor installations in one of the mansions I inspect. I have checked them out and verified Listing and labeling so Green Sticker time.