Hi,
Do the CO detectors tie in to the smokes now?

I know that in my area the smokes have to be tied together.

just looking at a drawing showing 4 wires to the co detectors.

thanks

windy

Not 100% sure, but I would imagine the CO Sensors would be on a different Loop than the Smoke Detectors.

Maybe the Drawing is showing the 4 Wires as:

* 1 Pair = Power,

* 1 Pair = Zone Loop.

Best to do here is an RFI (actually, an RFC) to whomever drew the plans you are referencing.

Maybe attempt to get an "Expedited RFI", by mailing / faxing / E-mailing / calling the designer directly, in conjunction with sending the RFI through the standard Red-Tape Channels.

Nevertheless, I would suggest requesting clarification from the designer, and verify the design intent conforms with all Local Codes that the AHJ will be referencing (Building, Electrical, Mechanical and Fire Department).

Looks like I may have opened the proverbial "Can 'O Worms"!!!

Good luck

Scott35

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I was thinking that if the CO's go off the Smokes would go too.

this is an ada project where provisions are being made for ada codes too.

I will investigate further.

thanks

windy

If you are talking residential, both Kidde and Firex make smokes and combo CO/Smoke's that interconnect. We have to put a smoke in every bed and one outside the sleeping areas, and typically put a combo CO/smoke in the hallway if the house has gas appliances.

Smokes and CO detectors are required to have a distinctly different alarm sound. I have no idea if the residential combo devices alarm through other devices (read smokes), but I would think that they don't. I have not yet tied the two together, but I may be wrong.

Interesting, I have worked with ADA/ADABAG ( a US standard for accessibility containing the Law for government and non-government installations) and though I provide notification for the deaf for smoke, I have not for CO. I will have to research this.

The distinct sound requirement is in the IBC 909.9.2. I have yet to find references requiring CO alarms, I am sure I am just looking in the wrong locations (we do have one jurisdiction in Utah that has a law requiring them in all residences).

I will have to get back to this in a week, those who know the IBC and ADA are all gone today and I am out all next week. I am interested to know myself.

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Very interesting stuff to know.

This is a residential housing job on an army base in Alaska.

regards,

windy



[This message has been edited by windmiller (edited 03-09-2007).]

909 of the IBC is on Smoke Control. We have been using CO detectors here in CT for a while now, and there is no reason to have distinctive different alarms. We allow and even encourage these two similiar device to be interconnected. ( compatibility?, use the same manufacturer) The object is to get the folks up and out of the building. Someone can then call the fire department, and they can investigate why the alarms went off: Was it a fire or was it CO gas accumulation? (They have gas detectors on their trucks).

Sorry, IBC 907.9.2.

The local adopting agency (usually the state, but sometimes the county or municipality) adopts the model code, then will add to and/or modify certain sections of the model document. Some states will also have the model code printing press print a specific state modified version of the building code. (Florida, California, Massachusetts and Connecticut come to mind)


The model building codes do not require CO detectors at this time (2003 IBC or IRC) I haven't checked the 2006. The NEC never has required fire detectors/alarms or CO detectors/alarms. This always has been a function of the building code.

Get on line, check out your state for the codes adopted, and their modifications of the model code.

There is a difference between smoke detectors and smoke alarms.

Smoke detectors are part of a fire alarm system.

Smoke alarms are stand alone units that are required to be interconnected to alarm when any one of the units is activated. (for new construction)

Smoke alarms are required in residential occupancies.

Fire alarm systems are required in commercial applications.

Make sure you are using the correct part of your building code document for the occupancy being protected.

In other words, don't apply the rules for a fire alarm system's smoke detectors to residential smoke alarm situations.

You sadi:

"Smoke alarms are stand alone units that are required to be interconnected to alarm when any one of the units is activated. (for new construction)

Smoke alarms are required in residential occupancies."

we are building some duplexes which some units have four apartments in them. the smoke detectors are only tied together inside the unit not to a system...

i guess if your neighbors place catches fire and they are not at home you will just be own your own!

The drawing shows smoke detectors, and not smoke alarms.

I think these are two different devices.

thanks for the replies.

windy

Even the design professionals make mistakes. Take a look at NFPA 72. The distinction is clear, and the requirements for each is just as clear. Also, every smoke alarm contains a smoke detector, so they are not entirely wrong.

The requirement in Utah comes from a statewide amendment to the building code that applies in all jurisdictions in Utah. The Utah amendments to the codes can be found in this document . An amendment to IBC (2006) Section 907.2.10 can be found in Section R156-56-704(24) of that document, and an amendment to IRC Section R313.1 can be found in Section R156-56-711(16) of the document. These amendments require CO detectors in all Utah jurisdictions.

earlydean said it correctly.
The building codes have for a long time required smoke ALARMS. They were first required in hallways leading from sleeping rooms, and now in every room used for sleeping.
The carbon monoxide alarm requirement is creeping in to the "code" environment now.
We (Oxnard Fire Dept) in Oxnard, CA require CO alarms on each floor of any new residence. We do it as a "condition of approval" for any new residential development. We hope to have it codified as a local amendment to the CA building code, soon. Next, the IBC and IRC, and then the world.......
Why?
Here's an example from the year 2000:
Grandpa is making soup in a big pot on an old stove. The big pot blocks air from reaching the burner. CO happens. Grandpa and other family members sit down, pass out. One family member staggers outside and falls face down in the front yard. A neighbor see him and calls 911. Every one is rescued. Another few minutes and every one inside would have been dead.
We want CO alarms!!
We want them interconnected so noise happens throughout the residence.

when wiring multi family condo buildings in md and washinton dc each condo has those hard wired single station smoke detectors (or combo smoke/co's)in them. they do not interconnect with their neighbor's system but are inter connected in that particular condo with 14-3(if you burn dinner you don't want to evacuate the whole building.) they are 120 volt and are powered by that homeowners panelboard. then we have a fire alarm system that is wired to the sprinkler system water flow switches, elevator lobby smoke detectors and pull stations, when any of these go off it will sound an alarm throughout the building--in each condo and in the main corridors, stairwells,etc. in high rise buildings they will only alarm the floor of alarm and the floor above and below the alarm.

My thinking was towards CO Sensors + Alarms in an Environment such as an Underground Garage - where if a CO Sensor is activated, an Alarm status is initiated, along with exhaust fans to vacate the CO.

The opposite woul occur if a Fire was detected - no exhaust fans turned on, but Alarm status would be initiated.

Scott35

yeah, scott in that case i would agree. the co detectors would activate supply, exaust and associated circulator fans. you'd wire that control circuit through a PAM relay that is tied into the fire alarm system, that way the f/a is isolated from the co control circuit. so when there is a fire the f/a system would shut down the fans. at least that's how i've done them in the past. i've also wired switches in the fire control room annunciator so the fire marshall could override the fans. enabling the fire marshall to stand in the fire control room and either shut down or turn on the fans to clear smoke from the garage.