What would you say to a contractor about his hook up on a furnace when he used a cord and cap connection instead of a direct hard wire connection?
Cord and cap connection is suitable if the horsepower rating is proper and the gauge of wire in the cord is adaquate.
The only thing I was concerned with is the manufacturer's installation instructions.
I have seen "wall heater" type installations that came out with a cord installed but I have never seen anyone connect a furnace using a cord and cap connection.

George,
I think that you have a 400.8 violation.
Don

I think you have a typical "west coast" furnace installation. This is especially common where the electric is only needed for the igniter and the blower.

Out here in California you would be hard pressed to find a furnace that wasn't installed like that. Usually the only time the furnaces are hardwired is in commercial applications.

What about 422.16?

The furnace would have to be intended or identified for cord connection.

I also have a hard time believing a furnace needs 'frequent interchange.

The fact that California allows it does not mean it is indeed NEC compliant.

There are things we do here in MA that would not fly in other states.

Don- I agree with you on the 400.8 violation. I think unless there is some reason to connect it with a cord/cap they would specify same in the manufacturers installation guide.

And Bob- I would not think that a furnace as installed with duct work and piped in gas line qualifies for 422.16

So with you two guys backing me up- I'm Golden

Here in Arizona virtually all the gas furnaces are plug and cord also. The only requirement is the receptacle must be the fused type, with an Edison fuse sized to Article 430.

Our evaporative (Swamp) coolers are also plug and cord connected, right up there on the roof, using a Midwest fused box sort of like a giant bubble cover where the cords hang out the bottom, one for the motor and one for the pump.

And yes, some of our homes are made out of mud.

I know that this is kind of a stupid question, but would an electric furnace in a heat pump situation installed out west be wired with a cord and cap as well? An example would be a 50 amp range cord used for a few backup heat strip units for the inside air handler. Around here in the eastern U.S., all furnaces, regardless of fuel, are hard-wired.

No, such a heat pump would not be wired using a cord and cap.

The justifications for using cords here are a) the need to service the equipment;
b) the desire to have a receptacle available to the serviceman; and,
c) 430.109(F) recognizes that motors might be cord and plug connected, without making any restrictions as to the conditions under which this may be done.

That last reference, to 430.109(F), is not as clear as it once was. Prior editions to the code clearly stated that such "shall be permitted." The closing reference to portable motors "under 1/3 hp" not needing a horsepower rated rated plug has been the basis for limiting application of the cord & plug as a disconnecting means has been used to justify limiting this method to small motors in practice.

So, out West, one will often find fixed appliances hooked up using cord & plug, especially when the appliance can be served by an 'ordinary' 120v/15a receptacle. We will use pigtails on dishwashers, disposals, trash compactors, air cleaners, air conditioning condensers, circulation pumps, and all manner of things that "back East" might be hard-wired.

Taking the word-wrangling out of the discussion, I like the cord connection mainly because it provides a simple and sure means of disconnecting what you're working on. No more hunting for breakers! It also recognizes that the 'other trade' is not likely to be there at the same time as I; I can provide the receptacle, and he can put in his stuff.

That said, even I have some issues with this cord & plug connected furnace:

I don't see how this is a violation of 400.8. The cord is NOT substituting "fixed wiring of a structure" because it is connecting a serviceable appliance to an outlet. None of the other restrictions in 400.8 apply; this installation isn't trying to skirt cable routing rules, it's just using a plug instead of hardwired conection at the outlet box.

Here in NJ, I have not seen any furnaces cord & plug connected. All are hard wired.

400.8 would be cited
John

PS, didn't we have this debate previously? I seem to remember another thread.

I realize that 400.7 Uses Permitted is not all inclusive but item 400.7(8) does talk about appliances connected via cord and cap and there are conditions for that type of connection but the furnaces I see don't meet the requirements listed here.

I saw a cord-connected boiler for the first time a few winters ago, which as the others have said is unheard of here. It was a Viessmann, and the EC or plumber who wired it simply put an outlet box on the ceiling and plugged it in (the boiler is wall mount.) I'm guessing all the Viessmann boilers come this way???


Peter

They use cord and plug to facilitate the use of a portable generator. My ex had her furnace (blower) rewired that way.
In that regard it is probably safer than the alternatives homeowners come up with like back feeding dryer receptacles.

Ok, I know that it's a code violation. But, given other cord and plug connected appliances, where is the danger? Think DW's, disposals, microwaves, etc as well as the hundreds of thousands of furnaces that are cord and plug connected in the Western states. I just don't see the hazard.

Peter

gfretwell Wrote:
I had to bail a homeowner out of a dispute between his heating contractor and the electrical inspector. I have been doing electrical work for thirty five years and only found it worth arguing with an electrical inspector five times at the most. When in doubt comply! The heating contractor had promised to make the new furnace capable of being powered by a generator but the electrical inspector was not willing to allow the cord and plug connection. As a previous poster pointed out the duct work and the gas piping argue pretty convincingly against the unit being suitable for frequent interchange or servicing. I asked the inspector if the cloth vibration section had an hand locking collar and the gas had a off appliance union would he allow the cord and plug. He obviously didn't like it but he said he would sign off. The cost of the changes were rather high though and the heating contractor didn't want to eat the parts and work. I offered to set up a recreational vehicle single pole transfer switch and a flanged inlet in a raised cover of a deep, 4&11/16ths square, (11B) box. Everyone was a lot happier and I picked up a two hour minimum service call out of the deal.

I really do understand the good faith difference of opinion on 400.8 but like other posters I don't understand why it is important. I don't see the compelling state interest in forbidding the use of cord and plug connections on these and similar appliances when the obvious reason to do so is to reduce the need for coordination between the trades involved. It just shouldn't take two visits to provide the power for a plumbing or mechanical job. The insurance companies that write insurance for the crafts very carefully exclude insuring any work beyond the individual crafts license. A plumbing or mechanical contractor that allows their mechanics to perform any work for which the firm and the mechanic are not both appropriately licensed is leaning his head way out after passing out machetes.

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 02-15-2007).]

So do I but I have to ask. (Anyone know what the emoticon is for tung in cheek) Was it the unclosed KO, the plaster ring used in place of a raised cover, the plaster ring being in its gravity assisted loosening position, the use of an inappropriate plate, or the receptacle being mounted on the appliance it is supposed to permit the servicing of that you object to.

Lets not stop there what else did I fail to spot.

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 02-15-2007).]

To avoid any confusion I will point out that dishwasters, disposals and trash compactors are specifically allowed to be C&P by 422.16(B). Perhaps we should add furnace blowers

tdhorne, it is a bit hard to tell ... maybe this second pic will better show the receptacle installation:





I suspect that this is a replacement furnace - and that the wall had to be removed to remove the earlier furnace.

I wish this pictured job was in my area I would have a hayday with violations. What a classic example of pig work. So much for providing a receptacle for furnace connections.

As George stated "nice....work"
I read and understand the logical explanations from certain geographical areas.
Yes, a c&p conn would be a safer method to power-up from a gen. And, I guess the HVAC guy could just take the new unit out of the crate & plug it in.

The other devices mentioned by some, are we talking a factory/mfg c&p, or 'installed by EC'??

Replacement furnaces and boilers can legally be 'wired' by the heating contractor, plumber, oil man, or homeowner, as long as a permit is obtained. All are 'hardwired'.

BTW, accessory items? humidifier, electronic air cleaner, condensate pump, how do you cord & plug guys handle them??

John

...a 1900 box and 2 duplex receptacles?

Just curious...
Do you guys back East always hardwire garbage disposals, dishwashers, gas water heaters,etc? If so, do you put a disconnecting means in for them?


(We don't call them "1900" boxes out West, they are 4" square or 4S boxes. We don't use "Greenfield", we use flexible metal conduit, we don't staple SE cable to the sides of our buildings or run NM cable exposed. You'd be hard pressed to find a boiler or an "oil man". Baseboard heat would be shot down in a second due to energy codes.).

Conditions are different. Reno's picture is certainly not the norm, it's hack work anywhere.
Maybe you need to widen your horizons.

Tradition. I can think of no reason other than "I've always done it that way." We usually just stub the NM cable out and then hook it up. No "1900" boxes, mulberry's or cords to deal with later.

When I first visited southern California and Las Vegas, I thought "Wow, they are pretty cord crazy out here." I thought the "all-in-one" loadcenter located outdoors was pretty weird. The lack of oil heat as an option was also quite disturbing.

Peter

It is hard to find a new construction house in Florida with hardwired disposals, dishwashers or compactors. The electrician is long gone when they do the appliance drop. The plumber gets the disposal on his final trim and the rest show up shortly before the customer so they will still be there.

Us guys "back East" wire disposals, dishwashers compactors etc. as permitted per Article 422.16(A) or if the appliance comes with a cord we provide a receptacle and properly sized circuit for it. This would be probably the rule for most of the State of Michigan. Okay, maybe we ain't "back East" but were mighty close to it. Maybe commerical equipment disposals, dishwashers that come without a cord are hard wired but most residential installations are cord connected. Don't get me wrong, I like cord and cap connections for some appliances because if and that's a big IF the electrician installs the cord there's a better chance it's done correctly and the receptacle is wired correctly and it's a better comfort level on the part of the inspector. It's not uncommon to see the cord by a non-electrician and it's sans a connector. That's when I write a violation to the electrical contractor.

George brought up a good point that I hadn't considered before.


We usually aren't very comfortable with non-electricians doing "our" work, even if it's allowable by the rules governing that trade. Even something as simple as installing a cord or connecting a dishwasher, we would rather do than the plumber.

Peter

Ahh... George...I am not accepting any violations for work I did not do.

Here the inspector would be required to notify the property owner and they would have to decide how to deal with it.

Bob I don't often disagree with you but you see, I don't have anyone else to write a violation too. I'm called to make an inspection on a job that has a permit and it's your permit I write the violations as I sees them. Let the plumber/builder/electrician argue about who is too blame. This job has made me kinda stupid- I don't know who wired the disposal, all I know is it's not wired correctly and I only have one permit on the job. Usually only happens once with the same builder I've noticed.

Edited to add: Easy way to solve this- meet me on the job for the inspection.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 02-19-2007).]

Some of the comments made have reminded me just how different things can be in different areas. Indeed, furnace installs are likely one of the major differences between "East" and "West."

(I know it will horrify for Mid-Westerners to hear this, but EVERYTHING east of Denver is "back East." At least we don't call the Maryland / Delaware area "middle East )

In the Chicago area, the furnace, water heater, etc., were typically located in a small mechanical room somewhere near the center of the building. The equipment was alos usually mounted on the floor.

Out West, that stuff is typically set on a platform in the garage. Unlike the earlier pics - which I posted to show 'how NOT to do it' - here is a pic of a more typical arrangement. Though but one cord is visible, everything electric on that platform has a cord & plug. The one item you see is a small boiler, for the drive ice melt lines.




I also agree that one reason that the cord & plug is preferred is that the 'other guy' needs, at most, to add a pigtail to the appliance. I really am not comfortable letting them hang a disconnect, or run a sealtite whip, etc. This view may be influenced by my regular contact with hack work - as my frequent pics here will attest!

The 322.16 defined appliances can be ordered with a factory installed cord and cap. That keeps the plumber, cabinet man or appliance truck driver out of our "trade" and makes the inspector happy. It is not that much more expensive for the factory cord and the "less hassle" factor makes it a bargain.
It is certainly worth bringing up to the builder. Down the road this is certainly a safer installation. There is a readily accessible means of disconnect for servicing and replacement is a snap.

Well I do not often disagree with you either but I can't even see how what your saying is legal.

To me that makes as much sense as a cop writing me a ticket because I am standing near him when he sees a speeder go by.

Here in MA you would be required to notify the property owner about this issue.

But not a big deal and I don't want to seem like a PITA.

Bob

Being one of the "West Coasters", I had only seen Receptacles mounted for FAUs in Residential stuff - with the hopes that the installer plugs in a Factory Installed Cord to that Receptacle.

This would best be viewed as:
***West Coast Residential FAU - 101***

Commercial Disposals and Dishwashers are a different thing, for some odd reason!
Used to be what a given AHJ had preference to - if these Appliances were Hard-Wired, or Cord-Plug connected.

Since the fact that over time, more and more preferred hard-wired Appliances, I began to see these items as "Default Hard-Wired".

It might come down to this:

1: During Rough, figure the worst-case scenario, and make provisions for either a Receptacle, or Hard-Wire from a 104 Blank Cover by placing a 1 gang outlet in a workable location.

2: When Finish comes along:
a: if the Appliance comes with a Cord, install a Receptacle - plug in the Cord, go on to next task.

b: If the Appliance has no Cord, Hard-Wire it, then go on to next task.

Problem now exists in the fair way of Estimation on this type of quagmire!
(or the thoughts of opening a grand Worm Container, by searching the Project Manual for specifications, by throwing an RFI at someone, or diving in with a query to the DBS for their preferences).

Some of these Construction issues, make things like Time Travel look like a cake walk!

My answer is:

When someone finds out what the truth is, pass on the information to me!

From the "Been There, Done That" desktop of Scott E. Thompson - Eeelecktrickal Injunear-ring Division.

Bob- Let me put it another way: I write the violation(s) I see when I inspect a job (new house) and post the violation(s) on the job site and notify the contractor of record as I am required to do by Michigan law. If it turns out that the "contractor of record" did not create the violation he/she will not hesitate to tell me so. Now the homeowner/builder will see the violation(s) as they are posted on the job site. Now the communication will happen between the homeowner/builder and the person who did the work about who is responsible to correct the problem. You've already told me you didn't do the work so I would expect either a call from you that you've been hired to correct the problem or another eligible person will be making the correction and scheduling a re-inspection under their permit. Works every time.

We still friends Bob?

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 02-20-2007).]

Of course.

Each area does things differently.

Maybe changing topics and need to start another thread, but exactly what do you require on your permit applications for elctrical? Does it just say kitchen remodel? Or does it list a specific number of outlets, appliances?

I have set up the application/fee schedule by number of openings(which has a definition I won't detail here) and appliances (and other categories such as equipment, special equipment, special conditions, and communication systems. I set up the fee structure to follow the NEC so I have a really close idea what the permit is for, what is going to be inspected (time spent, accurate/fair fees) and who is responsible for it. If the electrical application include 2 appliances for a kitchen remodel, I know the dishwaher and the disposal are the responsibility of the electrical contractor. If the electrical contractor tells me he didn't wire the disposal (and is not going to wire it) then the homeowner is responsible for hiring a new electrician who will need to pull a new permit (with a minimum fee at least, of course.) This new fee helps cover the rigamarole time and discourages these types of situations.

Oh yeah one other thing. If an HVAC can't do proper electrical work to at least supply their unit, they need to go back to HVAC school. We allow our HVAC to do electrical work specific only to their work. If they have to start adding sub-panels (as I see happen quite often, our worse yet double tapping breakers or even getting their power ahead of the main breaker[yes it happened]) or even relocating breakers in the panel to get a 220 breaker in, then they have to get an electrical contractor to pull a permit and do that work.

But an HVAC person should know enough about an electrical circuit and the NEC to run another circuit if necessary or reconnect a 1900 box with a switch on it and supply the unit properly. They should.

Garbage disposal cord & plug, maximum 3 foot long. Other kitchen applainces can't tell because they are concealing the type of connection. Water heater or furnace, would have to be listed and labeled for cord connection. Except for the instant (no storage tank) water heaters I have not seen any listed for cord connection.
As for writing a violation for something like a garbage disposal with a six foot cord and no connector, I handle it this way. The inspection report, that I leave at the job, has the electrical contractors name, the job name and the job address. The violation is against the address. The owner is responsible for having it corrected, and the electrician is the guy they should have fix it.
Alan--