Residential change:

Item (7) revised to read:

Commercial changes: Items (2) which was previously item (3) revised to read:
New item (4) reads:
New item (5) reads:
So, regarding the residential change, two things come to my mind...
1: What about the washing machine in the laundry that is within 6' of the sink, and
2: The 2002 addressed the countertop receptacles for wet bar sinks. Now it just says within 6'. What about a cord and plug connected garbage disposal under the sink?

[This message has been edited by Ryan_J (edited 10-27-2004).]

Ryan,

Great question.
If my laundry equipment is plugged into a receptacle within 6' of the utility sink, then it seems that the machines must be GFIed. There are no exceptions related to (7) that I could find.

I'm sitting here still thinking about this. . .

It seems that the requirement becomes a volume of space that is covered by the GFI. That is, a sink "GFI zone", for a sink mounted in a 3' high counter, will include an area of the 8' high ceiling above the sink, as well as the clock outlet on the wall above the sink.

And, if the sink is mounted against a "half wall" partition separating a single area into a kitchen and eating area, the receptacles within 6' on the eating area side of the partition should also be GFIed.

And I can think of a lot of small kitchen layouts that, based on how I read this, will now be required to have GFI protection on the refir and gas range receptacles.

Is a kitchen sink a wet bar sink?

No, but I'm not sure what a kitchen is anymore :-P

I would say no, since they each have their own seperate GFCI provisions in 210.8(A). Kitchens require the counter receptacles, wet bars require all within 6'...

Although....there is a mistake in the 2005 that defines kitchen for 210.8(A). It is found it 210.8(B)(2), which says for the purpose of this section, a kitchen is.... According to the NEC style manual, this definition applies to everything in 210.8, since that is the code section. 210.8(B)(2) is a subsection. So, in my opinion, a residential kitchen is an area with a sink and permanant facilities for food preperation and cooking.

Perhaps we can compare this to GFCI rules for garages- where an exception exists for dedicated receptacles (such as for a refrigerator or freezer).

John...I wouldn't allow it. There is no exception for this, and until there is I can't allow an alternate method, because 90.4 says that there must be equal protection for an altarnate. There is no equal to GFCI, in my opinion.

hi,
I did not think dedicated equipment like a washing machine or freezer has to be gfi protected?

-regards

Mustang

Mustang: There are no exceptions to this rule.

Ryan,
Do you think the intent was to require GFCI protection for the washing machine in a laundry if it was within 6 feet of the laundry sink?
Or, do you think the intent was to extent GFCI protection to receptacle outlets on counters or general purpose receptacles within 6 feet of these sinks?

I think the intent is that any receptacle within 6' of a sink is to be protected. I don't see any problem whatsoever with installing a GFCI on a washing machine. If the GFCI on the washer trips, it is because there is enough leakage current to trip it.

How true. I recall in the 70s when GFCI protection came to the construction site. There were "nuisance" trips everywhere. At first we would simply replace the GFCI breakers (no receptacle units yet) with regular ones. Later, when all that faulty eqipment was replaced, we could leave the GFCI protection there. It took a while. If the washer is faulty, then it should be taken out of the circuit. GFCI and AFCI protection is a superior protection for life safety. They may present a problem if faulty equipment is connected to a circuit that needs to be left on.

It was my belief that various things could "fool" a GFI into thinking there was current leakage when there wasn't. These things typically became signigicant when motors were starting or reversing under load, or capacitors were in the system- the sort of things found with air conditioners, compressors, and washing machines.
In kitchens, the GFI rules apply to "appliance" counter circuits- it is permitted to have the fridge, dishwasher, disposall, etc. on separate non-GFI circuits.
Just why must we discover bad english AFTER the code is out? Why aren't we discussing this before a "consensus" is reached?

John, IMO you are talking about design issues. The Code is written to tell you what areas are required to be protected. How you are laying out the circuits is up to you . . . the design issue. If you place a couple of commercial refrigerators on the same circuit, there will be enough leakage current to trip a GFCI (or at least be close). For that application, an individual circuit should be installed for each refrigerator. IMO this applies to other appliances.

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Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis, Utility Power Guy

I would think that if you put a couple of commercial refrigerators on a common branch circuit that eventually, they would start together and overload the circuit breaker, GFCI protected or not.

Charlie,

210.8(A)(7) is going to create some unusual "designs" of area, IMHO.

My customer is going to look at me, quizzically, and ask me to tell him why all outlets within 6' of the bar sink or the fancy laundry room sink are more hazardous than the outlets within 6' of the sinks in his kitchen.

My defense seems to be 90.1(B), that is, that safety trumps adequate service. I tell my customer that the bar refrigerator, though used less frequently, is safe now, just as safe as his kitchen refrigerator.

Maybe this one will have communities waiting to adopt the 2008 NEC, and skipping this one...we're still on the 1999 NEC in Crystal Lake, IL.

Dave

It appears that the requirements are poorly thought out ...

So if my washer GFCI trips for any reason I simply run an extension cord from a different outlet to the washer - the "problem" goes away.

If my freezer GFCI trips, my food rots.

If I have a stubbed out drain and faucets, can I not install a GFCI nearby and let the homeowner istall the sink later?

Can I cut the cord ends off and use junction boxs/flex cords instead of recepts?

In my personal experience I have never had a GFCI trip due to a fault. Too much ado about too little.

Perhaps all recepts should be GFCIs.

Like I said. . .

Very likely more will be each code cycle.