I've got an inspector telling me that I need to GFI protect the washer outlet because it is within 6' of a utility sink in the laundry room.

Does this make sense to anyone? Its a dedicated 20 AMP Appliance receptacle, right? Isn't the washer itself a big tub of water? I'm not sure what the issue is unless they are worried someone might pick up the washing machine and drop it in the sink...

We put a GFI device in the convenience outlet after he red tagged it the first time. He didn't specify that he wanted a gfi in the washer outlet...oh but he does want a $100 reinspection fee...

Any thoughts?

I think the courts would be interested in how he can justify that amount of re-inspection fee and I'm an inspector.

So as an inspector would you say that this red tag legitimate?

210.8 (A) (5) for GFI in the unfinished basement had exceptions. However (7) for the Deep sink / wet bar there are NO exceptions.
$100 reinspect ? My permit fee isn't that high for a new house with 200 amp service.
Alan--

So, then it doesn't apply to the disposal and dishwasher. Mysteriously its not necessary to have those on a GFI...

Again, as an inspector would you think it might be common courtesy to specify such an obscure situation, i.e. that you are talking about the washer outlet and not the convenience outlet?

Its not like we can find a single GFCI device right? I basically have to run a new feed into a faceless GFI and then re-feed the washer outlet...sound right?

Thanks for your input by the way because the alternative is a really nasty exchange with this inspector and I do appreciate not having to put up with the conflict...

[This message has been edited by Happi_Man (edited 05-31-2006).]

Happi,

The requirement for the GFI within 6 foot of the laundry tub can be found in 210.8(7), 2005 Ed.

Why not just install a 20 amp GFI and be done with it?

[This message has been edited by Jim M (edited 05-31-2006).]

There is no mystery.

210.8(A)(6) requires outlets that serve a kitchen countertop to be GFCI protected.

210.52(B)(3) requires the two appliance circuits on a countertop.

210.52(C)(5) allows the DW/Disp receptacle outlets to be excluded from 210.8(A)(6), because they are not required by 210.52(B)(3).

Just a quick side note on this.
I read recently somewhere about a case where an internal situation caused the exterior metal casing of a washing machine to become "HOT". The individual touched the washer and the faucet of the laundry sink, & became the conductor. Somewhere within that article a GFI for the laundry circuit was SUGGESTED. Article may have been in ECN, or Elec. Contractor mags, or ?????

As to the $100 re-inspect fee, heck, we go back as many times as it takes, and can't charge a penny more. Is that a town fee, or do you have 'private' inspectors??

John

The red tag is ligit but the re-inspect fee is criminal. I'd question it with the building department. There is no way it cost $100.00 to re-inspect for GFCI protection on one receptacle. You are being punished and financially raped.

The city of San Jose charges $166/hr for inspections. I believe the minimum time is .5 hrs so the $100 is not far off from what I’m used to. When you get a permit in San Jose they charge for inspection time based on the project. If you run out of time you have to pay additional fees before getting another inspection. When you call for an inspection you have to specify how long the inspection will take. If the inspector feels he/she needs more time than you requested you have to recall for another inspection.

If anyone is interested in looking San Jose’s fees here is a link: http://www.sanjoseca.gov/building/PDFHandouts/Feesch2005Aug9-2-2.pdf

Curt


[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 06-01-2006).]

Good grief, the only thing which seems to be missing is the "Change of socks" fee.

I imagine there must be a lot of non-notified, non-permitted work carried out in the city with all those charges.

Actually, I was going to just put in a 20 AMP GFI and forget about it but then I've got a duplex receptacle where it is supposed a dedicated appliance circuit.

Whatever, we put a GFI Breaker in the panel and are forgetting about it...

Thanks for all the input.

PS: Yeah Dublin, OH is the municipality. Its one of these ritzy towns that gets all they can from the little people...

Well, they do have to kick in their portion of the cost of the new city hall (Taj Majal), so they are raising fees, despite what was promised the voters when the city hall issue was on the ballot.. (it was supposed to be revenue neutral, with costs offset by the sale of the old city hall, as well as reduced costs from moving out of leased space.)

"I read recently somewhere about a case where an internal situation caused the exterior metal casing of a washing machine to become "HOT". The individual touched the washer and the faucet of the laundry sink, & became the conductor."

This is the concern of everything electrical, and is why there is an EGC; and why wasn't that event prevented by the EGC of the washing machine's cord and circuit opening the fuse/breaker?

Larry:
As I remember......
The EGC was either non-existant, or maybe the grd prong was snapped off, which caused the situation.

As I said, I don't remember ALL the details, or where I read it. I ONLY mentioned it as why some people may want to install GFI's in places that are not required.

John

Except this is not an issue of someone just "wanting to install a GFCI". This is an issue of the fact that it is code. Its code fo rthis appliance but not others, e.g. disposal, dishwasher. And what about the dryer? Usually sitting right next to the washer...that doesn't have top be GFCI protected? I feel like this is more a matter of obscure codes existing and being enforced.

The peculiar part of this is that we got tagged on it again in another county the same week. Never tagged on it in 17 years and suddenly its an issue in two counties in one week. Sorta makes you think there is a general forum somewhere that many of us in the field aren't privy to.

I don't mean any disrespect to our inspectors because many of them do their jobs well. But it often feels like some are working against us and for what reason? We're not all struggling enough with $3 a gallon fuel and $0.50/ft for 12/2 romex, on top of getting beat down and run through the ringer by blood sucking builders? We do fantastic work and a lot of the time feel like we're getting tagged on rare items because its too hard for an inspector to leave the site passing it off on the first round.

Hey, I'm just thinking out loud. I just want to do a good job and try to pay the bills you know? No disrespect intended to anyone. I just hope that if I'm not alone I'll hear from some compadres.

This is the concern of everything electrical, and is why there is an EGC; and why wasn't that event prevented by the EGC of the washing machine's cord and circuit opening the fuse/breaker?

Let's take a 100 watt light bulb and place it between the hot and the EGC. I doubt that it will take out the fuse/breaker. Do you want to grab the faucet and washing machine at the same time under these conditions?

Take a look at the code section that Jim M cited. Any 125-volt, single phase, 15- or 20-amp receptacle within 6' of the laundry sink requires GFCI protection. That would include the washing machine, the dryer, and the convenience outlet if they are within 6' of the sink. Nothing obscure about it.


This requirement is a new requirement. Prior to the 2005 NEC there was no GFCI requirement regarding receptacles near the laundry sink. It's a matter of inspectors and electricians getting up to speed on NEC changes. If you are not privy to NEC changes, I suggest that you make a point to make yourself privy to them.

For what its worth, I agree with others that the $100 reinspection fee is... well.. very high.

How is it obscure if it's IN the NEC? It's not like the NEC is telling you to refer to some other code book.
It's right there if front of you in your NEC- at least it should be in front of you.


What year NEC is being enforced in these areas?
What year NEC do you have in your possession?