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Posted By: Redsy Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 12:56 AM
Has anyone been required to install one?
Posted By: Larry Fine Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 01:06 AM
Everyone, in the form of a plug'n'socket, lockout on breaker, or positive mechanical off in built-in switch.
Posted By: watersparkfalls Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 06:28 AM
covered em all there larry....
standard wiring practices that is...
unless someone wanted to put a single pole swith under the sink and feed dw from it.
but who whould?
trying to give back....since i get alot of good help here.

h20
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 07:42 AM
"unless someone wanted to put a single pole swith under the sink and feed dw from it.
but who whould?"

Me, I do that all the time.
Posted By: Reel-Break Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 03:13 PM
Hey you guys ever put a cord cap on 12/2 or 14/2. or make a cord of any sorts? Can you legally?with all the UL stuff and listed for the purpose? Thats why I do the switch and direct wire method got into a pissing contest in wilmington with inspector for making a cord not listed and all that but at the time I had no time for so installed switch and direct wired. No problems anyone have any feed back about this.As far as can you make a cord to plug in the dish washer?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 05:14 PM
Whirlpool will sell you a dish washer and disposal with a factory installed cord and plug. That eliminates the need to field build anything.
My favorite builder doesn't get the appliance drop until a day or so before closing and using cord and plug means the install won't require another trip from the EC
Posted By: Reel-Break Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 08:34 PM
Appliance installs are extra.Around here the place where they purchase them from always installs. But for the Home owner builder we install all as part of the deal up front.

Well can you legally make a drop cord?Even one for job site use.....liability should anything ever happen.I see them all the time 12/2 to house but what if someone gets shocked and has accident man wouldn`t the lawyers eat that up? Who made it.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/21/06 10:51 PM
In-Sink-Erator makes a Disposal cord meeting the requirements of 422.16(B)(1), but I've yet to see a cord available that meets the requirements of 422.16(B)(2).
As a hedge, I installed a receptacle in the sink compartment(I will buy or build a cord), and purchased a "breaker-lock" for the CB.
Posted By: Active 1 Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/22/06 01:36 AM
It's mostly switches under the sink around here for DW. The exception is the few like Bosch that has a cord. A few places require the DW switch at counter top hight. For disposals it's allways 3/8 greenfield.

We put a 1900 box (4x4) under the sink with extension rings thru the cabnet. Then we run the wips to that an put on what ever garven is needed.

Tom
Posted By: harold endean Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/23/06 12:43 AM
Has anyone out there seen AHJ's accepting the ON/OFF switch on the DW for the "Disconnect" means? Or do most AHJ's want the lockable/or plug & cord?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/23/06 01:23 AM
For a piece of equipment that has to be moved in order to service it, I cannot imagine the switch on the appliance qualifying as the disconnecting means.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/23/06 01:34 AM
Tom:

"We put a 1900 box (4x4) under the sink with extension rings thru the cabnet. Then we run the wips to that an put on what ever garven is needed."

Please explain the above (1900 w/extensions)???

'Lockable' CB's are the norm......

Redsy:

Had a discussion about the 'breaker lock' devices at a CEU meeting/class, with a few AHJ's. Seems that one don't like the 'lock-out' type, as he feels it's not a permanent item! To be continued 1st week in March at next CEU.

BTW, I have not seen a switch, either above or below the counter.

John
Posted By: Redsy Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/23/06 02:19 AM
Hotline,

Look here:
The QL1PL and QLPB123PL snap very securely on to the CB and require a screwdriver to pry them off.
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/PG74A01TE.PDF

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 02-22-2006).]
Posted By: Yoopersup Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/24/06 02:43 AM
Read 422-31 & 422-34 2002 NEC
Posted By: BigB Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/24/06 03:01 AM
Wow, disconnects for residential dishwashers! I've never seen one in Arizona, they are always plug and cord connected. We always rough in a split wired duplex for the DW/DSP.
But then, we keep our circuit breakers outdoors also!
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 02/24/06 03:08 AM
Redsy:
Thanks for the link. I was not the person debating, but the 'referee' (part of the team doing the CEU)

I believe he was refering to the type of lock-off's that are part of the lock-out tag-out kits similar to the one's available at WW Grainger. I commented that if the item is not 'easily' removable, while not being 'locked-off, I would not make an issue of it.

Further, if it is 'factory' installed it should be accepted, as long as it's not been modified, hacked, altered, etc.

This discussion will probably continue during the next CEU 5 hr, 1st Friday in March.

John
Posted By: harold endean Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/01/06 01:38 AM
How do you interpet the section 422.34 ( 2002 NEC)?
Posted By: Joey D Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/01/06 03:37 AM
I do exactly as BigB does. I install a pre made appliance cord on the disp and DW and then plug them in.
I keep my breakers inside though
Posted By: Ryan_J Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/01/06 02:07 PM
Quote
Has anyone out there seen AHJ's accepting the ON/OFF switch on the DW for the "Disconnect" means?

I accept it all of the time [Linked Image]
Posted By: George Little Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/01/06 07:54 PM
Ryan, I accept it all the time when the switch says ON/Off because UL explained to us at one of the UL meetings they have at the IAEI Section meetings, that the switches marked ON/OFF do indeed disconnect the branch circuit from the appliance. Now if it says STOP/START it doesn't qualify as a disconnect. That's the measureing stick I use.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/01/06 08:19 PM
My problem with the "on/off" switch is it may not disconnect all ungrounded conductors.
If there are servicable componants, like the clock board, that remain powered in the "off" position, this is a hazard.
Posted By: George Little Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/01/06 09:51 PM
Greg- that's exactly why this issue came up and UL assurred us that if it's marked "OFF" it disconnects all ungrounded conductors from the appliance (except the ON/OFF switch of course)
Posted By: Active 1 Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/03/06 12:40 AM
Hey Hotline,

Sorry for taking so long to you.

I don't remember seeing any breaker locks on any residential except smoke dectectors (where it is localy required).

Don't see any cords on dishwashers in this area except for a factory one and a bad homeowner job.

We pipe a box in the sink cabinet wall. Then put an extension ring(s) to go thru the wall and back of cabinet. Wip off of the extention. Put what ever garvin is needed on the extension. One reason for this is everything is piped. So the box in the wall can be piped to a few other places. I like it for a home run because it's big and you drop off the dishwasher, disposal, etc. circuit(s) there.

Tom
Posted By: harold endean Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/03/06 12:47 AM
George and Ryan,

See that is what I mean, if there is a switch that says "OFF", shouldn't that be acceptable? Same goes for T-stat. A Double pole T-stat that says OFF means that both legs of a 220/240 volt heater is disconnected. A T-stat that says "LOW" means that only 1 leg of the feed is disconnected and that should not be accepted. So if a EC install a dishwasher and the cotrol knob says "OFF" then wouldn't it meet the requirements of 422.34?
Posted By: e57 Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/04/06 09:28 AM
"but I've yet to see a cord available that meets the requirements of 422.16(B)(2)."

I have, get them at the supply house all the time. A 6' one behind the cabinet and plugged in right next to the garbage disposal. Done-

Now... the switch on the unit as a disconnect for the appliance. Come on now, what if it is the wiring to, or the switch itself that needs to have mainenance on it. Like that big dial on my washer that goes from "off" to "heavy soil".... I have an "Off" and "On" button on my stereo, they don't qualify as a disconnect for anything....My understanding is that the whole general idea is to disconnect for the electrical circuit feeding it, before it is INSIDE the appliance. I guess those same inspectors who accept that, would also accept a disconnect inside an AC unit, or under the skirt of a hot tub? As for 422.34, to verify that it would qualify, would you not need a schematic of every aplliance?



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 03-04-2006).]
Posted By: George Little Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/04/06 12:54 PM
e57- Take a look at 422.34 where it discusses "Unit switches as Disconnecting Means" and you might change your mind.

I just re-read your post and you have read 422.34 Sorry. But I see the ON/OFF requirement as the trigger for being a disconnect.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 03-04-2006).]
Posted By: e57 Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/04/06 05:35 PM
"disconnects all ungrounded conductors" as a qualifier for this... George I read it, but my question remains, how do you know it qualifies?

Many dishwashers have all controls in the door in a small keypad. Even many older ones have a series of buttons also on the door. Most of those are low voltage controls, which means that they are powered by a transformer that is still on when you hit the "off" button. Either way there would still be a hazardous voltage present in the junction box of the unit, and in close proximity of the series of relays and solinoids below the unit.

I imagine someone reaching below, bumping the door, and starting the unit while changing a belt...
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Disconnect for dishwasher? - 03/04/06 06:36 PM
We are at the mercy of the U/L listing. I suppose that may be valid with new appliances but they were a lot looser with "ON/OFF" in the past. That is particularly true in electronics that are never really off unless they are unplugged.
These days they mark that switch "power" or the global friendly "0/1".
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