ECN Forum

Eye Clinic & 517

Posted By: Alan Nadon

Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/11/05 04:02 PM

I'm not sure if Article 517 applies to an eye clinic that does eye exams and makes glasses but, does not do eye surgery or treat eye injuries. They employ licenced optometrist but no doctors.
Health care facilities include medical, dental, psychiatric, nursing, Ob/Gyn, and surgical facilities (Lasic would be in that part) but, I'm wondering about the regular eye clinic.
Is it a health care facility ?
Alan-- an Inspector
Posted By: raider1

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/11/05 04:35 PM

Under the definition of health care facilities, it says " Health care facilities include but are not limited to, hospitals, nursing homes, limited care facilities, clinics, medical and dental offices, and ambulatory care centers, whether permant or moveable."

IMHO, I think a case could be made that an eye clinic is a health care facility.

Chris
Posted By: SolarPowered

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/11/05 04:46 PM

During an eye exam, there is most definitely electrical equipment against your body. For example, the glaucoma tester, and the gadget with all the lenses in it. So, yes, an eye clinic absolutely needs to be treated as a health-care facility.
Posted By: gfretwell

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/11/05 05:10 PM

Since the patient is not connected to any of the machines I would dissagree. Certainly the AHJ can say anything they like but if we are calling the "eye machine" something that is "directly connected to the patient" (as in 517.11 FPN) then we better start looking at video arcades and the blood pressure machine at the drug store.
Posted By: SolarPowered

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/11/05 09:36 PM

I don't know the exact definition, but that glaucoma sensor in direct contact with my eyeball certainly seems "connected" from my point of view...
Posted By: Roger

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/11/05 10:53 PM

I agree with Greg.

If we are going to try to include all the places that may examine a human being for anything, what are we going to do about the Lions Club (diabetes, glaucoma, etc...) flu shot clinics, and others, that set up at schools and businesses to provide testing, vaccinations, and the like?

In N.C. it is decided by the AHJ which is the Division of Facility Services or DFS for short.

Most plain jane Eye Clinics, Doctors Offices, Dental Offices, etc... where no surgeries or major invasive procedures are performed, are not considered Health Care Facilities to the extent that part II of 517 would be the law.

I think the NFPA has intentionally left this up to the individual AHJ's. NFPA 99 is just as open (vague) as the NEC is on the matter.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 10-11-2005).]
Posted By: harold endean

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/12/05 12:15 AM

My 2 cents is to get a letter in writing from the doctors that do the work there stating that their equipment used will not be hooked up to the patients. The new type of Glaucoma machines I have seen don't really touch your eye, but they will blow a small puff of air into your eye. So as Greg stated, you are touching the machine, but you are not really hooked up to it. Also ask the AHJ in that location if he/she sees it that way.
Posted By: caselec

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/12/05 12:42 AM

I don’t understand why Part II wouldn’t apply.

517.10 Applicability
(A) Applicability Part II shall apply to patient care areas of all health care facilities.

(B) Not Covered Part II shall not apply to the following:
(1)Business offices, corridors, waiting rooms, and the like in clinics, medical and dental offices, and outpatient facilities.


Why would 517.10(B)(1) be necessary if these facilities were not intended to be included in the requirements at all? The patient care areas would still be required to meet Part II.

Curt
Posted By: George Little

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/12/05 03:27 AM

When I inspect one of these facilities and I see a piece of equipment with a cord cap on it that has a green dot on it, I expect the circuit supplying this piece of equipment to comply with Article 517.
Posted By: gfretwell

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/12/05 04:00 AM

On the other hand the "hospital plug" might just be there to please the guy who spent so much money on the hospital receptacles
Posted By: Larry Fine

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/12/05 11:31 PM

"When I inspect one of these facilities and I see a piece of equipment with a cord cap on it that has a green dot on it, I expect the circuit supplying this piece of equipment to comply with Article 517."

"On the other hand the "hospital plug" might just be there to please the guy who spent so much money on the hospital receptacles"

I'd say that the instructions for the device in question should be the deciding factor. If it says "This equipment must be . . ." then it must be.
Posted By: Dnkldorf

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/12/05 11:43 PM

A question that I thought of:

What if this is a clinic and not required by 517.

And then a couple months/years down the road, the doc decides to do minor surgeries, like lasic and such, or does treatments.

Will the whole facility now have to be required to meet 517?

In short, re-wire?

Dnk....
Posted By: harold endean

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/13/05 12:08 AM

DNK,

I think that everyone here is all about safety. If not we wouldn't be discussing all of these issues. However, I believe that we can "try" to worry about the "What If" scene, but we can't always be able to take care of it. By that I mean, if I inspect a job and it meets the present NEC, then I must pass that job. I can't always worry about, "WHAT IF" someone adds, blah, blah, blah. If someone does add a large piece of equipment and the work he does, doesn't meet the code, then I would fail the job. Too many times though, people add stuff to the house and office and don't get permits, and since there are no permits, we can not inspect the job. If I had to worry about the "What IF" problem, then all buildings I inspect would have to be able to withstand a crash from a 747 airplane, with stand earthquakes and hurricanes of very large sizes.
So bringing it back to an eye care place, if the doctor decides to operate on eyes a few years after I inspect his office, then it is his responsability to make sure that it meets all of the proper codes. This is my opinion only mind you. [Linked Image]
Posted By: gfretwell

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/13/05 02:47 AM

I just think this "hospital" thing has gained a life of it's own, far beyond any reasonable safety issue. It makes perfect sense when we are talking about things where they shave you, put on paste and attach electrodes or open you up and stick things in your body but some of the incidental contact you have with the various machines in a doctor's office are no more hazardous than the barber's clippers or the handle on a slot machine.
I saw a big deal made about "hospital grade" stuff made in a dentist office and virtually everything there was air or water powered. The only electrical things I saw were the light that the patient never touches and the Xray, which was all plastic on the outside.

I was just the "bank inspector" so I was just an observer. The EC ended up ripping out drywall to put in medical grade AC replacing the MC he had used for a receptacle that a PC was going to be plugged into. The PC plug did not have a green dot on it.
Posted By: HotLine1

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/14/05 02:01 AM

Not to throw salt on an open wound...
"I'd say that the instructions for the device in question should be the deciding factor. If it says "This equipment must be . . ." then it must be."

Kind of a bad move to find out that HG IS required when the equipment is delivered to a finished office.

Had a 'rough' last week....written on plans "exam room 1" etc....wired in MC. Red sticker...GC had a fit....had a quick discussion....re-roughed with HG next AM.

Patient treatment rooms are HG, offices, reception, halls, etc are 'regular' suitable wiring method.

We have had numerous issues with "flex" space being converted to medical office space and using "existing" wiring, but that's another tale. (Change of Use)

John
Posted By: Tesla

Re: Eye Clinic & 517 - 10/15/05 01:32 AM

Clearly all of this is motivated by fear of the institutionalized tort machine: trial lawyers.

Get used to way, way, way overkill whenever and wherever these boys show up.

The double ground is a 'belt and suspenders' legal defense. It is not motivated by technical concerns. It is linked to hospitals, etc. because of their propensity to be on the receiving end of killer lawsuits. And they are on the end of these suits because they can pass on their embedded insurance expenses to all of society. That is what the socialization of medicine entails.

You should wire all such establishments with creative lawsuits in mind.

Stop thinking rationally.

Get paranoid.
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