ECN Forum
Posted By: aldav53 Spa/pool ckt - 09/27/05 08:22 PM
In a residential home, is it legal to tap into the pool light 15a ckt and run to a indoor spa requireing 15 amps also. The customer says she won't run them at the same time.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/27/05 08:29 PM
Assuming 680.23 is satisfied I can't think of a reason why it's not OK.

What size bulbs are they using? Even two 600w would work but spa lights are usually more like 100 or maybe 300. My 15,000 gallon pool lights up fine with two 300s. In fact I have them on dimmers because sometimes it is too much.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/27/05 11:38 PM
The pool is probably a 400 watt. The indoor bath tub spa is using a 1.5 HP motor. At 750 watts per HP its a bit close on a 15 amp circuit. They would probably have to run them separate, which is ok, if its code.
Posted By: jw electric Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 12:30 AM
Quote
680.23 (F) (2) Equipment Grounding. Through-wall lighting assemblies, wet-niche, dry-niche, or no-niche luminaires (lighting fixtures) shall be connected to an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor installed with the circuit conductors. The equipment grounding conductor shall be installed without joint or splice except as permitted in (F)(2)(a) and (F)(2)(b). The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122 but shall not be smaller than 12 AWG.

Please explain how you will conform with the criteria in bold above and tap in a receptacle for the spa.
Posted By: caselec Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 12:48 AM
Why don’t you run another circuit for the indoor tub motor?

Along with Mike's (jw) comments about complying with 680.23(F)(2) a 1.5hp motor can not be connected to a 15 amp 120 volt circuit. You need to look at table 430.248 which shows the full load current for a 1.5 hp motor at 20 amps.

Curt
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 01:06 AM
Ya, I always run 20 amp ckts with GFI for indoor bath tub spas. The customer said the company said it could be a 15 amp. But I believe he is wrong. I'll ck the code book.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 02:50 AM
I may have misunderstood the question. I thought you meant the spa light. Sorry

I can't imagine much of a spa skid pack that will even run on a dedicated 15a 120v.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 02:51 AM
.

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 09-27-2005).]
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 05:26 AM
jw electric,
Your talking about a light fixture. This is going to a spa motor. Just a 20 amp circuit with a GFI mounted below the tub with access, is legal. My question is can I tap a 15 amp pool light circuit (if the motor calls for it, which I don't think it does, even though the spa company said it would) sharing the same circuit as the pool light if they were not going to be used at the same time. The pool light circuit has a switch controlling a GFI recept (Standard) than out to the light. I would tie into the line in at the switch and run underground to the spa, a short distance. The panel is on the other side of the house, making it really difficult the run the circuit.
Conclusion though is to run a new 20 amp GFI circuit from the panel and just charge for a much bigger job.
Posted By: jw electric Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 01:50 PM
In order to add the tub to the circuit that supplies the light in the pool would require a joint in the equipment ground conductor supplying the pool light which would be in violation of the following section of 680. 23 (F)(2):

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The equipment grounding conductor shall be installed without joint or splice

I was trying to point out that even if the pool light was supplied by a 20 amp circuit this installation would not be allowed.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 03:05 PM
The pool light switch has a 15a circuit run to it, I could tie it there. There no #12 bond wire at the switch. I believe the bond for the pool light is bonded at a different point. Probably the panel, or somewhere in the pool filter area, to a water pipe maybe?
Posted By: markp Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 03:21 PM
The way you get around the unspliced grounding wire rule is to run a separate grounding wire for the receptacle. Kind of like running an isolated ground circuit.

A larger problem is the prohibition of fastened-in-place equipment drawing more than 50% of a circuit that contains lights or receptacles. Is this tub fastened in place? If so, it needs to draw less than 10 amps from a 20A circuit.
Posted By: jw electric Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 03:46 PM
Sounds like this pool light installation has some very serious problems.
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300.3 (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway
680.23 (F) (2) Equipment Grounding. Through-wall lighting assemblies, wet-niche, dry-niche, or no-niche luminaires (lighting fixtures) shall be connected to an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor installed with the circuit conductors. The equipment grounding conductor shall be installed without joint or splice except as permitted in (F)(2)(a) and (F)(2)(b). The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122 but shall not be smaller than 12 AWG.
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originally posted by aldav53 The pool light switch has a 15a circuit run to it, I could tie it there. There no #12 bond wire at the switch. I believe the bond for the pool light is bonded at a different point. Probably the panel, or somewhere in the pool filter area, to a water pipe maybe?

300.3 states that all the conductors of the same circuit are to stay together.
680.23 (F)(2) states that the equipment grounding conductor must be #12 and be insulated
In your statement the conductors supplying the pool light is #14 which in itself is a violation. Now you say there is no grounding conductor present at all.
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680.42 (C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
The equipment grounding conductor for the pool light is required to be insulated and not smaller than a #12. The spa requires a copper equipment grounding conductor that is not smaller than a #12.
I can’t see where the equipment grounding conductor that is already existing complies as is and would not comply to the new spa.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 04:19 PM
There is an exception that allows the grounding conductor to be spliced on a busbar in the switch or transformer enclosure. When I wired my pool I took Mark's route tho. I ran an unspliced green wire to the J box and another (in the same pipe) that grounded the switch and the "within 10-20'" receptacle that was on the light circuit.
Posted By: jw electric Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 04:40 PM
Gfretwell if it will not offend you I would like to make a statement about your post.

You posted:
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There is an exception that allows the grounding conductor to be spliced on a busbar in the switch or transformer enclosure.

This is not spliced it is terminated under a screw. [Linked Image] Just make sure that the box is listed for the addition of the terminal bar.

I hope this doesn’t offend you nor make you mad nor angry or anything like that.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Spa/pool ckt - 09/28/05 08:28 PM
No offense taken. In fact I am not even sure what that exception means in the case of a switch, hence my extra EGC [Linked Image]
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/04/05 02:58 PM
The pool light is legal with a GFI controlling it. But can I tap that circuit to run to the indoor spa motor. I looked up the specs for the spa motor and it does call for a 15a separate circuit. What if I disconnected the pool light. Or could I leave it connected as long as the customer never used them at the same time. If she did, worse case, it might just trip the breaker.
Bottom line is it legal to use a properly sized 15a circuit to run to loads, (each 15a), as long as they aren't used at the same time.
Example: I've seen R/V outlets on the inside and out side of a garage on the same circuit. But never to be used at the same time.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/05/05 05:00 AM
Can't seem to find the answer.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/05/05 05:52 AM
Flip back in your code book a half inch of pages.

210.19 Conductors — Minimum Ampacity and Size.
(A) Branch Circuits Not More Than 600 Volts.
(1) General. Branch-circuit conductors shall have an ampacity not less than the maximum load to be served.
Posted By: jw electric Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/05/05 01:13 PM
Quote
originally posted by aldav53:
The pool light is legal with a GFI controlling it. But can I tap that circuit to run to the indoor spa motor. I looked up the specs for the spa motor and it does call for a 15a separate circuit. What if I disconnected the pool light. Or could I leave it connected as long as the customer never used them at the same time. If she did, worse case, it might just trip the breaker.
Bottom line is it legal to use a properly sized 15a circuit to run to loads, (each 15a), as long as they aren't used at the same time.
Example: I've seen R/V outlets on the inside and out side of a garage on the same circuit. But never to be used at the same time.

You said that you read the specs of the tub and it calls for a circuit of its own. You have answered your own question.
Read 110.3 (B) of the NEC and you will find that the tub CAN NOT be on the circuit with the pool light or anything else.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/05/05 02:42 PM
gfretwell,
The conductors are sized correctly.

jw electric,
Art. 110.3 (b) does answer the question.

My only other option would be if I were to tell the customer that I could tie into the pool light circuit but would have to disconnect the pool light from the circuit. Then the spa motor would be on a separate 15a circuit.
Of course that raises the question of the option for her to have someone reconnect the pool light later.
Ethically, I don't think I should do it this way, even though technically it would be legal.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/05/05 02:48 PM
I guess I could write it on the invoice how it was installed and not responsible for any future changes to the circuit.
Posted By: jw electric Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/05/05 07:45 PM
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originally posted by Aldav53 jw electric,
Art. 110.3 (b) does answer the question.

Yes it does

Quote
originally posted by Aldav53 I looked up the specs for the spa motor and it does call for a 15a separate circuit.

Here is why:

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110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

The National Electrical Code in 110.3(B) states if the tub calls for a separate circuit then your only choice is to install a circuit just for the tub.

This deal of the pool light needs to be forgotten and spend that energy on getting this tub installed per the NEC.
[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by jw electric (edited 10-05-2005).]
Posted By: aldav53 Re: Spa/pool ckt - 10/06/05 01:26 AM
I guess your right. The only reason I was pursueing this is because the circuit run from the panel would be almost impossible. But could be done.
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