ECN Forum
Posted By: CRW lay-in fixtures, independent support wires.... - 02/27/09 03:20 AM
We are required in most places around here, to attach some kind of additional support, usually ceiling wires, from the structural ceiling to all lighting fixtures that are installed in a grid ceiling. I don't believe this is required in the NEC, but I want to know what code requires this. Nobody's ever given me a straight answer for this, we just do it if the inspector says to. We also attach the clips from the fixture to the grid, which is required by 410.36(B)
NEC requires lay-in's to be secured to the grid; clips, screws, rivets, etc. That is all!

Mfg specs (For some ceilings) may require support; Article 110.3 (B) says we must follow mfg spec.

Seismic code (Building) requires independent support.

Some Fire Inspectors/Codes require independent support.

The "Rule of Common Sense" which is NOT in the NEC leans to 'if the ceiling grid sags from the weight of the fixtures, independent support required' but that's not NEC

Ask your local inspector what article he is referencing.
your answers are located in 300.11, 410.16(C)
If you have 2005 NEC handbook read 300.11 explanation goes over it .
Most ceilings have to be Listed & Labled to carry the additional weight.
Theres also an issue here with Boxes & wiring attacted to ceilings .
300.11 just addresses the wiring, boxes and fittings. I'm just tal;king about the luminaires---particularly lay-ins, but some inspectors require all recessed lights, cans, etc. to be independently supported from the grid. 410.16(C) 2005 or 410.36(B) 2008 only states that the grid itself must be securely fastened to itself and the structure, and that the fixtures must be fastened to the grid. I'm looking for another code, like for instance a building or fire code.
---We are required in most places around here,---

Man! I cannot comprehend living this way! Every Neighborhood has different rules.
Ok done with that.

Think liability.
How much does a box (roll-depending on supplier)of jack chain cost?
How much to defend yourself in a lawsuit from Mary at the desk or Joe on the local FD?

It is all (supplemental support)2nd nature here in Mass.,Been on the books for ever.
One that I agree with. This code seems to be the only thing authority gets right.
Perhaps because the board (for the most part) is all volunteer.
Leland:

I have to add a personal comment here:

As an EC, doing primarily comm work I always had support wires installed for lay-in's, irregardless of 'code'.

The hassles of the Elec Insp passing 'ceiling, and then the Bldg or Fire Inspector leaving a red tag was a pain. This was a pain from way back when a lay-in was made slightly heverier then a empty six pack of alum cans.

Most of the comm guys here do install wires, although I cannot mandate it thru NEC. Sometimes more is better.

Read 2005 NEC Handbook 300.11, & 410.16 commentarys after Code sections.
Both say Fixtures included.
UNLESS ceiling Has been Listed for additional added weight.
In Mass.

410.36(B). Add a second paragraph as follows:

In addition to, or in lieu of, the mechanical fastening means, electric luminaires (fixtures) containing ballasts, other than simple fluorescent reactance ballasts, shall be supported directly to the building structure by wire, chain, or threaded rod of sufficient strength to carry the luminaire (fixture). Fluorescent luminaires (fixtures) shall be supported at each end of a diagonal axis of the luminaire (fixture).
Yop:
Commentary is just that....commentary, not code

BTW: Not directed to you, but all of us:

When was the last time a 'sparkie' saw the grid spec??
Leland:
Thanks for the Mass amendment; we have nothing here in NJ re: this subject

Usually if Specs are written right they include previsions for additional supports for Items such as fixtures & mechincal vents ect.
and don't people who write Code have imput on commentry!
I know there not Code but most inspectors look at them for direction as well as as code intertperation books.
Yop:

The path that I'm following here is trying to answer the OP original question, and explain which inspectors enforce support here.

Specs are written by Arch/EE and have to be complied with providing they are either 'to code' or greater. Mfg specs/instructions are mandatory under 110.3 (B).

Yes, I agree with you....I refer to the NEC Handbook and the commentary often. Most, if not all of that is easier to grasp, and assist all of us. I use the Handbook in the NEC class I teach. I have the NFPA Handbook, and right now I can't tell you who wrote the commentary. I also refer to Mike Holt's books, and his commentary.

Although it is listed in the nec to attach lighting fixtures to the grid, I have been told by more than one fire dept not to. If my fixtures are independantly supported and the fire dept needs to get to an above ceiling fire. usually with a hook or back of an ax. they don't want lights and loose wires falling on their heads. 95 % of the work i do is commercial, and always support mc by buidling structure i.e. purlin, beams etc. until it reaches its target. for 2 reasons it looks neater, and it will pose no hazard to falling through the ceiling.
Licensed 1986:
never have looked at a 'NEC''hand book'. Let alone give my money to the thieve!

This document is written in such a way that if you don't have a basic grasp of the English language and basic English comprehension,You won't get it. Whats wrong with that?

Learn to read like a lawyer. it really is not that hard. and MOST complaints I see/hear. is strictly finacial. Do it right..No problem.
It is our last resort of NOT dumbing down.
i'm partial to the manufature's clips myself, they just pop right onto the grid, Besides, don't you just hate having the can disappear upwards changing the element....?

and yeah Leland, a roll of jack chain is a small price to pay for the silence it provides

~S~
Independent support really all depends on which seismic zone one is in.

http://www.designco.net/us-seismic-zones.gif


In California we're required to support the opposing corners of a troffer fixture to the structure above with wires, and screw the remaining corners to the grid.

Originally Posted by CRW
We are required in most places around here, to attach some kind of additional support, usually ceiling wires, from the structural ceiling to all lighting fixtures that are installed in a grid ceiling.


In Pennsylvania, the State is split between two seismic zones. That could be the reason.



If any of you are in the IAEI bring up this Question at your next meeting . Theres usually a Code Panel there Plus a couple hundred license inspectors. I Still feel the Handbook & Several other Code Reference books are great for getting a better Idea of the intent of the code . To Many inspectors make up the rules as they go.
Yoop,

The "Building Codes for Electricians" is the Area where we discuss the other Building Codes that affect how we install our work, not the NEC.

NEC handbooks, IAEI meetings and the like have little relevance here.






You might want to Read Annex A ( UL standards) & Annex E Referenced in Article 334 (Types of Construction) in Nec .
They are Refences to building constuction , Materials & Equipment and Geee there in the NEC.
So other Builing Codes are Referenced in the NEC.
I have written 3 notes on this topic and erased all of them. This whole topic always starts a lively discussion at the IAEI meeting and the code has addressed it several times in the last 4 cycles, changing their mind each time.
The last time I heard it discussed at the IAEI meeting the consensus was they want to see supplemental support and these supplemental support wires should be somehow visually distinctive from the normal T bar supports. One thing that is significant at our IAEI meetings is we have a lot of building official types who span several disciplines so it is not just an "electrical" opinion. I am not sure how that works if you have a lot of big city guys who are specialists.
In both the UL Standards in Annex A, and Types of Construction, Annex E, They've got nothing to do with this discussion.

Article 334 is Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable, which has nothing to do with this discussion either.

The NEC isn't the only Building Code applicable to this situation.

That's why this Area on the Forum was created









CRW:

Can you contact one of the AHJ's in your area? The seismic/bldg/or fire code has to be the place to look.

On this side of the Delaware...the AHJ has to cite an Article from whatever 'code' he is failing you for; is it the same in the major Pa cities?

Okay- My turn to say something. The National Electric Code is the Code I was hired to enforce. Nothing in that Code has me asking the electrician to install any additional wires or jack chain or aircraft cable. If the ceiling can't support the lay-in or recessed fixtures it is a structural issue and the ceiling guy needs to respond. When is the last time you installed additional wires and it did not distort the ceiling and now the ceiling guy is in your face. If it is specified in the plans about additional support I guess there should be some team work between the electrician and the ceiling installer. All I look for is that the fixture is secured to the grid work.

Okay, tell me I'm wrong.
You are spot on George.

Your job is to inspect the EC.

Here (Mass) we support the fixture. not the ceiling. That simple.

yes we all must adhear to and follow the building codes... But... Draw the line.
300.11 Fire rated Assemblies
Exception: The ceiling Support system SHALL be permitted to Support wiring & (EQUIPMENT) that have been tested as a Fire rated assembly.
As I see it then unless a Fire rated ceiling has been tested & approved. it requires additional support. Since its in the NEC as referenced I'd say we have to address it.
(Equipment)SEE Definations Article 100 includes Luminaires(fixtures)
All ceilings are listed & labled as to supports required.
I always tell Electricans to work with ceiling installers & to check and address it. To ignore it I feel & say its a building offical issue ??????
This is part of the Pa Unified Code Act( which made us less unified than ever) It is in the Commercial Constuction Code, somewhere. I don't have a copy. I usally just call AHJ just to see what they say. I have seen the books at the library, in the referance section.

Ob
If you use the 2003 IBC as your building code, then Chapter 16 is the place to go.

Whether or not support wires are actually required depends upon three factors. One is obviously the seismic area the building is in. Another is the importance factor of the building (hospitals are more important than a storage shed). Look to Table 1604.5 in the IBC.
Lastly is the site class of the soils the building is built upon. Look to Table 1615.1.1 for this.

Once it is determined that your building needs seismic bracing, then an engineered design would need to be made. A commonly used referenced standard for this is a book entitled "ASCE 7".

Under this design (and many others) it is determined that an acceptable method of seismic bracing is to attach 2 #12 iron wires of the same sort used by the ceiling installer to diagonal corners of the troffer in rooms larger than a minimum size of 144 square feet. Smaller rooms do not generally require any bracing.

Because of the complexity of these calculation to merely determine where and when seismic bracing is required, many electricians and inspectors simply require all troffers in commercial buildings to have the diagonal bracing.
Goggle
(Drop ceiling Supports light Fixtures) . You get some interesting info from ceiling installers & Manufactors.
The jurisdiction I work for has written it in the county code amendments. We try to limit the number of amendments and only have a few. An Electrician is required to install- 2 #12awg,steel wires from the structure to ,2 opposite corners of lay in lights. 1 #12 awg steel wire from the structure to recessed lights smaller then 24". Light boxes for in the ceilings for fire alarms devices, exit lights, surface mounted lights all require 1 #12 awg steel wire also.
Not in the NEC and our Fire Marshall pushed this so it's added as a local amendment.
I think the best advice any of us can take is just support the damn fixtures with grid wire. If anything call AHJ and ask whether they want two corners supported or all four. Any large commercial, or retail stores, I have done AHJ has always wanted 2x4 lights supported . I even wire the exit ceiling boxes.

I have done two corners, and sure as hell inspector comes in and says "All four sparky" Or I have done all four and the inspector says "wow, I never see anybody do all four"
It is not a Mass amendment 410.16 (C) Is NEC meaning it should apply to all in 2008 NEC.
It's been awhile since anyone voiced an opinion here.

But - the Building Codes reference 1000's of Standards depending on the subject.

This subject under discussion here - 'lighting fixtures in T-Bar ceilings' is covered under Standard 25-2 [Metal Suspension Systems for Acoustical Tile & For Lay-In Panel Ceilings]

Section 25.213 [of Standard 25-2] - Lighting Fixtures
[There's lot of info here]

1. All lighting fixtures shall be positively attached to the suspended ceiling system.

2. Lighting systems weighing less than 56 pounds shall have, in addition to the requirements listed above, two No. 12 gage hangers connected from the fixture housing to the structure above. These wires may be slack.

So - there is no reason these 'additional' wires should have an impact on the T-bar grid.

And - this is where these building inspectors get their nebulous understanding of why additional wires are required on lay-in light fixtures.

Very few, if any, inspectors could provide you with a code section or document showing why these additional wires are required....it is just something they picked up over the years.

BTW - all these standards used to be published in the building code books...now-a-days the codes just reference the standards...which requires you to purchase these standards individually...quite pricey.
Out my way...

We're required to paint/mark OUR seismic wires differently than the grid crew.

Beyond that, we're required to run wires to even the dinky fixtures.

This all goes back to a Southern California earthquake caught on security tape. The retailer had been built without seismic wires for the fixtures. They ALL hopped up, out and down onto the shoppers below... after which the hot connections popped open. ( The only remaining support being Greenfield )

Thusly, I've ended up being forced to install wire.

http://www.constructionfastening.com/lagmasterplus.html

And for demolition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYB6XCpifPk&feature=related

http://www.strapperpoles.com/

Check this tool for setting wire.
I became a big believer of additional supporting means on the day when I saw the suspended ceiling of a room at a plant where I worked come crashing down without any warning. People got hit with the lay-in panels and a few of them got dinged with the grid...but the lights themselves were all still hanging from their independent support wires.

I don't know who decided to mandate that in the plant, but it sure saved a lot of injuries that morning.
To continue, Thanks to Tesla for the links, very interesting items.

Dana has some good points with references, but...it's not within the NEC jurisdiction.

Ghost indicated a real life situation of a ceiling collapse with only a few minor injuries, because the lay-in fixtures were independently secured.

All that said, I can only enforce the NEC. The Building Inspector has to enforce the Building Codes as adopted within the NJ UCC.

BTW, most sparkies here do support the lay-ins, and secure them to the grid.
The biggest place I saw violations was when they shuffled around offices after the initial permit and these seldom ever got any kind of inspection.
If someone decided a troffer would be better, over a square or two(as far as the whip would allow) they moved it. If there were supplemental wires they seldom got moved. The light was just dropped into the grid.
I have seen total office remodels with walls moved, HVAC reducted <is that a word?> and new circuits run ... no permit at all. This may be done by the "building maintenance staff" not a contractor.
I don't think I ever saw a permit for a computer room rewire.
Greg:
Usually the 'sins of the past' (unpermitted work) wind up as an 'extra' for the now office building.

Believe it or not I just had a inspection for 168 replacement voice/data lines!

Amazing! Maybe there is some progress going on
John,

This past month or so, I was inspecting a hospital where they took all of the ceilings down. There was asbestos removal and while the ceiling and grid were down, they removed a lot of the old wire above the ceiling, attached new grid cabling and re-mounted all of the new grid lights.
Harold:
Most of the ECs in my town know that it's time to clean up of the sins of the past during renovations.

The GCs that raise objections get the standard speach that IF they want a approval at above ceiling inspection, they will clean it up.

John,

I too have that standard speech about cleaning up the old wires above the drop ceiling. I realize that they can't remove every old piece of wire that they see, but they have to get rid of majority of the old wires.
© ECN Electrical Forums