Any of our many California gent's out there know if ADA heights have changed? ie. 18"CL and 42"CL AFF Second time recently that I have gotten plans requesting 15, and 48".

Mark, does California have its own ADA codes?

Roger

Yep.... Not sure if has changed or not?

Well, none of the heights you give are all inclusive of true ADA codes.

For side access the minimum is 9" and the maximum is 54"

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 10-15-2004).]

15" minimum and 48" maximum is what I have always seen in the specs.

Curt

I understand it to be as Curt says. +15, +48.

Wow, for years, and it's not just me, several people I have worked for too, but around here we have been doing >18", and <42", as an ADA thing. Not that any of us wants to go get a book for $60+ bucks to just to find out plug and switch hieghts on a half page. And have a book that also contains how much turning radius area is needed in a toilet, and everything else too.

Anyway, thanks gents.

Here you go Mark,



Figure 5a
High Forward Reach Limit

Forward reach range shown in profile and plan view to be 48 inches maximum and 15 inches minimum.



Figure 5b
Maximum Forward Reach over an Obstruction

The maximum level forward reach over an obstruction with knee space below is 25 inches (635 mm). When the obstruction is less than 20 inches (510 mm) deep, the maximum high forward reach is 48 inches (1220 mm). When the obstruction projects 20 to 25 inches (510 mm to 635 mm), the maximum high forward reach is 44 inches (1120 mm). (4.2.5, 4.25.3).




Figure 6(b)
High and Low - Side Reach Limits

The 30 by 48 inch wheelchair clear floor space is located a maximum 10 inches (255 mm) from the wall.


Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 10-16-2004).]

Once again a thanks to you, I did how-ever go on down to the library to confirm this. (As I was kicked out of the house for a bridal shower, and it's rainy day.) But from what I make of this, is that the minimum and maximum are determined by approach. So >15" to bottom of the receptical, and <48" to top of the switch would seem be the way to go, as something like this could easily be over-enforced. Better safe than sorry, or conservitive rather than costly.

Roger, Seems you have the book, and..... Dare I say it could I get one more from ya? Please. Side reach over obstical, like a kitchen counter.

I would really appreciate it.

Thank you in advance.

Mark, ask and ye shall receive.



Figure 6(c)
Maximum Side Reach over Obstruction

If the depth of the obstruction is 24 inches (610 mm) and the maximum height of the obstruction is 34 inches (865 mm), the maximum high side reach over the obstruction is 46 inches (1170).

Mark you can access this info below.

Click Here for the ADA

Roger

Roger,

Nice use of UBB code and online material!!

Roger, You are Prince! Thank you so much, due to my book buying freeze, I used to go to the bookstore to look it up, or library. And I have tried searches for this stuff before, and all I get is places where I could buy the book. (Not everything is easy to find on this all seeing internet of the new century)

Thanks Al, Mark, I don't think the term "Prince" would apply, but you are welcome.

Roger

To E57
The CA recep and switch heights are in the California Electrical Code, which probably doesn't see it's way to many places besides an inspectors office.
There are no provisions for the 54 inch side reach to apply here. You might be able to make a reasoned argument to the AHJ to consider it in granting a variance or exception. For multifamily the reach over the counter is specified. I need more time to summarize the reg's here. Ask your inspector to see a copy .
Larry LeVOirCity of Irvine
210-7(g) and (g.1)
380-8(c) and (c.1)

Larry welcome to the forum. How (or) does CA. work with the ADA, ICC, or ANSI to come up with their handicap codes?

I personaly think the forward reach covers the worst case scenario.

Roger

Larry brings up a good point. I didn't get into this thread because I don't know the California building code. The ANSI A117.1-98 is a standard that many, many states use, including my own. It also does not recognize the 54" unubstructed side reach, except for in existing buildings (in order to comply with the ADAAG). I agree with Roger, I would just keep things between 15" and 48".

Rodger - Thank You

quote"How (or) does CA. work with the ADA, ICC, or ANSI to come up with their handicap codes?
I personaly think the forward reach covers the worst case scenario."

California had disabled access provisions before ADA was enacted. Much of ADA ( I am told) was based on what CA was already doing. We have been told we do not enforce ADA, because our reg's meet or exceed. Just like CAL/OSHA does. CA has it's own provisions as to bringing existing occupancies into compliance. Aytime a TI (teneat improvement) permit is apllied for the plans must address upgrade of bathrooms and path of travel outside to parking lot. Nothing is done to upgrade existing electrical unless it is in the bathrooms or a complicated formula is satisfied to bring the rest of the building into compliance. ALL new electrical has to be at the current min/max heights even if the existing doesn't match.
The ICC is amended by the state into the Californis Building Code and disabled access provisions are amended to concur with state reg's. The electrical portion is pretty minor compared to the problems the building inspectors run into in providing equal access to eating and dining establishments.

I don't have any info on how we relate to ANSI.

sandsnow,
better check your code book again.i use the 1997 u.b.c. with california amendments(2001 c.b.c.).is irvine using the icc?

Ya know I thought this thread died a while back, and truthfuly I'm glad its still going. I went down to the bookstore/library, and checked out a book called CARM http://www.buildersbooksource.com/cgi-bin/booksite/20025.html
And it did not have the 54" hieght for foward reach, but did have the 48" and 15" hieghts, and side reach over obstical hieghts at 46". So now maybe there is a common sense question it did not answer... What is that measurement to? Top, bottom, CL? Assuming the 48" is a maximum, that would be 46" CL, and likewise with 15" as a minimum that would be 17" CL. And with 46" as a max, it would be 44" CL. Or am I mistaken? Other wise half of the device would be above or below these dimensions, right?

Sandsnow, like I said, I am on a book buying freeze at the moment, and didn't want to pull the wrapper off the T-24 chapter three, or pay $120 for it. (especially as there will be a new one effective 10/01/05) Would have been nice for them to publish the suppliments to the NEC here: http://www.bsc.ca.gov/title_24/t24_2001tried.html#PageTop
Simular to what our city does: And post what they added to the CEC. http://gcp.esub.net/cgi-bin/om_isap...nfran.nfo&softpage=browse_frame_pg42

E57;


The quoted Maximum / Minimum dimension (measure) is to the Center of the "Activating Handle Of The Device" (Center of the throw of a Switch), or to the "Center of The Insertion Point Of The Device" (Center of either a Simplex [single] Receptacle, or the Center Point between the upper and lower halves of a Duplex Receptacle... AKA: right where the Cover Plate Screw goes on Standard "Double-D" Duplex Receptacles).

I have seen it (the "Measured Point for Electrical Devices), described as to the Center, in nearly all Spec's, plus in the documents referenced within the 2001 CEC, and in some ADA information from certain Jurisdictions (City / County of LA, for instance, has code compliance Documents On-Line).

For the norm of Outlets, figure minimum Center Line for "Floor Level Access Devices" - such as G.P. Receptacles and Comm/Data Outlets, to be 15" Minimum.
I usually go with an easier to install 18" center line - resulting in the Bottom of a typical 4s Box mounted at 16" (cut a 16" piece of Steel Stud for mounting aid).

On the flip side, for typical Light Switches, or when Receptacles are mounted at Switch Height, the Maximum Center Line dimension / measure is 48" (normally..., although exceptions do exist here! Some AHJs have height revisions for Receptacles and Switches in ADA Accessable Restrooms).
When I mount these Animals - again using the typical 4s Box as example, I go with 48" as the top of the Box - making the Center Line at 46", and the Bottom of the Box at 44".
Cut another Steel Stud 44" long for this mounting aid.

I will cut/paste text from some LADBS ADA documents I have - which are .PDFs, so the references need to be converted to either ASCII text or an image prior to posting here.

Scott35

HI to pwood,
I don't know why I put down ICC, you're right CA is on the 2001CBC ('97UBC)

Hi Scott35
Where are you quoting from? I don't disagree with the measurement, but my book (2001 CEC) has it a little different.
".....the center of the grip of the operating handle of controls or switches intended to be used....."
So putting the switch box at 48" AFF to top is always a safe bet. Beware on T-STATS as the controls may be on top, but it's rare.

The receptacles height as stated in the CEC has been the subject of some debate that I don't agree with. QUOTE:
"...the center of receptacle outlets on branch circuits 30 amperes or less shall be installed not more than 48 inches nor less than 15 inches above the floor or working platform."

The debate was about the center measurement. If you were to measure to the center screw of a duplex then you would have the bottom receptacle outlet of a duplex below 15 inches.
My take on this was always that construction measurements are always to center unless otherwise noted, so the measurement in the CEC should be to center of a duplex.
I was directed to enforce the 15 inch to the center of the bottom receptacle of a duplex "rule" until I was able to convince powers that be otherwise.

Hi E57
Beware on the side reach rule, as it only applies to multifamily.

"Beware on the side reach rule, as it only applies to multifamily."

What about commercial?

Oh, and get this, I asked our AHJ/Inspector today, and his take is, and I have to go with it, no waves at this point, it's getting rocked. Anyway, he didn't pull an answer from anything like I would have wanted, but gave this as an aswer, "Why don't ya just play it safe, and have the entire portion of the receptacles and switches within the 48" and 15" measurements." (i.e. 46 and 17) "That way the bottom portion of a plug isn't out, and the top portion of a switch, like a decora wouldn't be out of the min's and maxes."

Makes sense to me..... Like I said, been doing them for years at 18" and 46". (Mis-typed in the original post, at 42".)Which is what I held firm to for this job, and the last. Only recently have I even had anyone ask for anything else. But it seems this issue has been batted around before, as there was a need to "convince the poweres that be". Sandsnow, thanks for the direct wording there.

Yes, I agree...what about commercial? The state is silent about this area. We ahve never pushed the issue in a commercial kitchen. As long as the recep's are at or below the max, then ok. I can't enforce what's not in the Code anyway, but you can install to a higher standard.

Hi Larry (sandsnow).

I was kind of "Shooting From The Hip" so to say, with the definitions, but more to the point I "tried" to quote what I remember from City of LA's Compliance Documents.
I downloaded a bunch of Compliance Documents from LADBS' site, for use on Design/Builds + just to have the information on hand.

"Center of the grip" is what I should have written - and goodness knows why I didn't!



Other than this, the measurements and quotes I normally refer to would either be from documents (mostly on-line) from a certain Building Department, or passed to me within an Architect's Specifications (or both!).

Let me know if you would like to review the documents I referred to above from LADBS, and I'll either send a link or the PDF document to you.

Thanks for the heads up on the T-Stats height!
I now am involved with HVAC Automation systems, and have installed many Zone Sensors with manual adjusts (temperature adjustments via a Pot.), on which, the thumb wheel being located at the upper portion on the device!
48" to the top would be pushing the limits - and would really suck for anyone in a wheelchair, trying to adjust the temperature!

As to the "Normal" Receptacles height (+15"), I feel the same as you do - 15" to the center is placing the lower portion of a Duplex device below the minimum measurement point.
My "fix" on this situation is to place the bottom of the box at 16" - making it somewhat easier to work on, and a little easier for people to plug stuff into the device.

I am thinking now of lowering my switch / T-Stat height, to be no more than 42" from Finished Floor level to the Bottom of the box (unless certain restrictions apply).

Thanks for the reply!

P.S. Where is the ADA data located in the 2001 CEC? I have the loose leaf binder version of Title 24, part 3, but not sure where the data for ADA is found... so far I see referenced document names in the front section / California Matrix Adoption Tables. (BTW: for those persons reading this & wondering "Whaddaheckizzzthat"!, "Title 24, part 3" is the 2001 California Electrical Code;
Not to be confused with California's Energy Conservation stuff, which is Title 24, part 6).

I'll check back to this thread tomorrow AM.
Any suggestions per these height issues will be greatly appreciated!

Scott35

edited to fix at least one ambiguous-type statement... but there's gotta be more!!!

[This message has been edited by Scott35 (edited 12-01-2004).]

Scott
Yes, I would be interested in the link to the LA stuff on disabled access, thanks.

Actually, I think the 15inch to the bottom recep on a duplex is wrong, but my delivery was not clear. I believe it should be to the center screw. To make somebody raise over a hundred boxes for 1 inch was my awakening. I called the state because I wanted to be sure and was told that the center screw at 15 was good. This was years ago.
I'm sure there are some out there who still enforces 15 to the bottom recep.

T-Stats, height req. only applies if the T-Stat is useble by the occupant. Some pnuematic do not have external levers. T-Stats in a locked enclosure do not apply. Key words in the code here is "intended to be used by the occupant of the room".

In the 2001 CEC check out 210-7(g) and 380-8(c) for disabled heights

Sandsnow;

Here are a few links to LADBS' information:

Site Index-LADBS

Information Bulletins Cover Pg

Information Bulletins

I cannot seem to find the documents for the ADA stuff, as the site has been revised drammatically since last time I was there.
If you send an E-mail message to me with your address, I will attach the .PDF documents I have from LADBS, and send them your way.

You may send a message my way using either of these methods:

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[*] Click on the "E-Mail Icon" found in My User's Profile


[*] Send a message to me "Manually" at: setelectric at pacbell dot net, swap the "words" for symbols - like "at" = @ and "dot" = .
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Scott35