We've all had to prop ladders against gutters and eaves, in order to get on the roof. One thing that has always bothered me is the way the ladder seems to shift just as you make the roof/ladder transition.

Here are some pics of my 16' "4 way" ladder in use. Not only do I NOT have to lean it against a gutter, it is extremely stable.

Something to consider.







[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 01-01-2007).]

I have a 16' one like that I got from a buddy. Those are also great for replacing the hanging fixtures in the entry halls of the classic 1970's raised ranch homes.

I thought about getting one in fiberglass, but they're heavy on the back and the wallet. Last time I looked it was $420+!

DOug, my 16' Louisville set me back about $260. I'd keep looking. Please do not confuse this ladder with the "Little Giant" type.

John,
I thought that the ladder safety rules said you need to extend the ladder 3' above the roof line.
Don

Don, I have seen that "rule," and I have a LOT of problems with it.

It was leaning against such an extension that once caused the base of a ladder to come free on me. I know, the movied always show a nice graceful transition, but this is the moment when the ladder seems most likely to move.

My own preference is for the ladder to project very little above the roof line, and for me to go 'straight over the top,' rather than shift to the side.

This arrangement of the 4-way does project a foot or so above the roof edge. The outstretched "feet" make it VERY secure, with virtually no wobble or shift as you make the transition.

Most important, the ladder is NOT leaning against a flimsy sheet-metal gutter. Besides being flimsy, sheet metal is slick .... which makes it so much easier for the ladder to shift.

Now, IF your ordinary extension ladder is securely tied off at the roof, AND the feet are placed in a manner where they simply cannot move on ANY direction, the "step to the side" can work out quite well.

A final 'detail" to consider is that the "usual" rules are written assuming "usual" ladders. This 4-way ladder is neither fish (extension) nor fowl (step).

I don't usually have a problem with a ladder slipping when it is up against one of those extruded aluminum gutters. When you are "busting the deuce" like me it makes two deep dents in the edge that hold the ladder steady.

Regardless of how we feel about a rule if we are working under OSHA that would likely be a violation.

The company I work for would have two issues with that ladder.

1) It's metal, we do not use any conductive ladders. We don't buy them we don't borrow them.


2) The set up, we would have to have the top extend past the roof a greater distance.




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-04-2007).]

The non-conductive comment seems particularly appropriate since the ladder in the picture is resting on a raceway. It doesn't take too much imagination to seeing that be damaged while you are blindly jamming that ladder into a secure position from the ground.

It may not be obvious due to paint, but that IS a fiberglass ladder.

Also, the ladder is not contacting any of the conduit; it passes over it. Good point to consider, though.

As for the "OSHA rule"... one of the very first issues OSHA had to litigate involved this very issue.
In the particulars of that case, the OSHA rule said trucks had to have their wheels chocked while in the loading dock. The defendant did not chock the wheels; he had anchors in the pit, and used a come-along to pull the truck tight against the dock.
OSHA argued 'a rule is a rule.' The defendant argued that his way was better.
The ruling, which was upheld on appeal, requires OSHA to recognise 'other approaches' that are as good, or better, than what the book specifies.

I believe that the 4-way ladder, used as pictured here, meets or exceeds any extension or tie-down requirement that was written with a different type of ladder (extension ladder) in mind.

This is, after all, America. We are NOT mindless serfs to a ruling bureaucracy.



[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 01-04-2007).]

It looked like a metal ladder.


I guess that depends on the scale of the jobs you work on.

For us and the jobs we go after it is absolutely essential that we follow the OSHA regs.

The GCs we work for look at past OSHA compliance and a workers comp index.

Personally I would not climb that ladder as pictured, I envision it rolling over one direction or the other.

But to each their own, I have never liked making the swing from the ladder to the roof when the ladder is resting on the metal gutters or flashing.

We generally rent lifts as to keep us off extension ladders.

That's the reason I posted these pics, Bob ... I don't think you could 'roll it over', no matter how you tried. This arrangement is SOLID. Maybe it's because the ladder footings are so much wider than the ladder itself; they sort of act like out-riggers.

(Trust me on this; I absolutely loathe heights, and despise ladders. I actually did have a ladder give way during the transition once - resulting in a 'harmless' broken back. I like to thnk I have some 'unique personal expertise' on this subject )

[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 01-04-2007).]

Bob,
Umm is that not the spouting of the building?.
Sure, if you want to run wires through that....

I tried as best I could .... but it's a bit hard for a pic to show both 16 ft. of ladder as well as 1" of clearance!

The ladder, as set up, is absolutely NOT touching either the gutter (spouting), or the conduit on the roof. The only place where the ladder contacts anything is at the two ends- those broad cross pieces with rubber caps on them.

John,
Sorry about the spouting comment.
I reckon that this ladder would be an exception to the rule with regard to the overhang above the roof-line.
It seems to have a steady "fixing" to the roof itself.
The largest number of accidents with ladders are caused by people not having the 1:4 angle rule applied, or they stretch out from the ladder they are using instead of moving the ladder across.
Ever dodgily got back onto a ladder that is extended above the roof-line wondering if the ladder is going to move at the bottom as you transfer your wieght on to it?.
Aluminium ladders are bad for it, fibreglass ladders are only marginally better.
Then you also have to think of the spouting that (often) the ladder is resting against, PVC spouting will last about 3 seconds after placing any decent ladder against it.
Then you have a damage issue to work out with the customer.
I'd use this ladder.

{Sad story, one of the last fire calls I attended was to the house of a retired electrician, as a medical co-responder, the guy fell off the fibre-glass ladder he was using while painting his house.
The guy had the ladder up against the house and it used the 1:4 angle rule, what went wrong was, the ground was soggy and it gave way all of a sudden when the guy was up the ladder, the guy was thrown off of the ladder in the other direction and landed on his head, he died at the scene from a broken neck and internal injuries.
Had that ladder been properly seated and tied off, the guy would still be alive today.
Don't cut corners folks!.}

renosteinke, as i just asked in another thread- what would happen then if you got hurt doing it your own way--as you said "i've seen that rule and have a problem with it" (talking about the 3' above the roof line rule). even if you did feel your way was safer. if you were working for a contractor would they be able to refuse part or all responsibilty of paying workman's comp, medical bills, etc.?? after all, you would be knowingly violating an osha rule. i'd really appreciate anyone's opinions. maybe share some previous experiences.

Mark, that's a fair question.

One of the earliest "bloody noses" OSHA received at the hands of the courts had to do with this isue. OSHA mandated one thing; a company had a way they felt was better. OSHA fined ... and lost in court. OSHA is required to consider alternative approaches and specific situations, not just the "letter of the law."

If it became an issue, The first thing I would point out is that the guidelines mentioned here are for extension ladders. That is not an extension ladder in the picture.
I am also confident that I could demonstrate the superiority of this arrangement over a conventional ladder, simply by tying a rope to the top and giving a jerk to the side. This 4-way ladder isn't going anywhere.

The primary goal is accident prevention ... not complying with rules, or arguing blame afterwards.

As for "I have a problem..." statements of mine ... sometimes rules are applied in silly ways, or are simply wrong. They will never be corrected if no one is allowed to challenge them. Your best piece of "safety gear" is between your ears; there just being a rulebook does not mean you should stop using it.

renosteinke, thanks for the reply, that's an interesting story. it's good to know common sense does apply. i have climbed many ladders and sent my workers up them too. safety is always a concern, as it should be.

How often do you come accross a roof line that works this well like this one?
I just use my 28' fiberglass up aganist the roof or gutter extend it past a few feet then use a rubber bungie cord to lock it in place.

These particular ladders are common amongst PoCo's here in NZ, the chain at the top is to rest it against a power pole:




{Picture cropped from an old Trade-me auction I had on file here, hence the bit at the bottom}

Lucky, this ladder is a 16' ladder, with 4' to each section. In practice, using the ladder as shown works well on almost every single story house roof.

The building shown is somewhat taller than a house .. so the ladder does match the roof closer than usual. Most often, the "hinge" of the ladder is higher off the roof.

I'll see if I can find a pic.