First, let me explain the situation. The place I work at, has 5 different institutions, and our maint. dept. is split up between the 5. Each area has an electrician, a plumber, hvac, etc. One of the electricians is our union president, and being that he is the president over a 600+ member union local, he is very rarely in his area to keep up his work load. For a long time now, the supervisor over that area, continues to task other tradesman to perform work that is not within the scope of their training, particularly the electrical work. Most of the electrical work is considered commercial, but we do have 5 powerhouses, in his area, with voltages up to 12,470vac. Examples of the other work being performed are, garage mechanic pouring concrete, welder installing drywall, and several trades performing electrical work. This has gotten out of hand now, because it has spread to all 5 areas. One of the guys has even said that he does not feel comfortable working with electricity, but the boss insists. Maybe I'm biased, but I have always felt that our trade was a specialized trade, and you shouldn't let just anyone do it without proper training and experience. I've read OSHA regulations top to bottom, but can't find anything written clearly enough to enforce this. It basically says that a qualified person is someone who has had classroom or on the job training, and that they must be familiar with the equipment they are working on and voltages present. With a vague description as that, our bosses could justify this by saying, for example, the hvac guy is familiar with electricity, and can perform my job. Is there anything we can do to stop this before someone gets hurt? Sorry this is such a long post.

Does your state have licensing requirements?

I work at a federal facility, and no license is required.

As I see it, there are at least three alternatives open to you.

Virtually all federal institutions are covered by OSHA. OSHA has adopted the NEC, and also has it's own rules regarding trainind and wualifications of help. While "qualified" is largely in the view of the employer, the employer is also expected to document any training provided.

You did mention a "shop steward." This guy's job is to address such issues, without it being necessary for you to make youself a target by opppenly questioning a policy. Since the steward is also an electrician, he should have some interest in this issue as well. If his steward duties interfere with his ability to do his job- well, there is already extensive labor law on this point, and he has remedies available to him.
Ultimately, you may file a grievance, and force the issue to be addressed. You also may approach management higher up the ladder.

You may also "vote with your feet," and seek employment elsewhere. Lose benefits, lose seniority, lose pay....look for sympathy elsewhere; that's what everyone else is face with on a regular basis. You, quite simply, have to "put up or shut up" in life sometimes.

I also very strongly reccomend that you be absolutely certain that your concerns are reasonable. There is a world of difference between changing a light bulb and installing a generator- yet both might be described as "electric work."

According to the NFPA 70E, a ¡§Qualified Person" is one who is trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of the equipment or the specific work method, and be trained to recognize the hazards present.

Such persons shall also be familiar with the use of the precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others.

In addition, to be permitted to work within the limited approach of exposed energized conductors and circuit parts the person shall be trained in all of the following:
Qualified employees shall be trained and competent in:
„X The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed live parts from other parts of electric equipment
„X The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed live parts
„X The minimum approach distances specified in this section corresponding to the voltages to which the qualified employee will be exposed, and,
„X The decision making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely

I think your problem is thinking you are a specialized trade.

You have to learn how to multitask.
Esp in your union enviroment....

We as electricians have to do more than just electrical work sometimes.

We get to pour concrete, fix drywall, frame up missing supports,....ect.

I worked in a steel mill once, union controlled. The company was combining the electrical depts, mechanical depts and such so that everyone could do everyones job. This is more effiecent for everyone. If a needed a bracket for something, I went and cut the angle iron, welded it together, drove a forklift around. bascially could do anything. even operate the machines if need be.

The Union put up such a fight over this multitasking, I believe they went on strike.
(I don't remmmber the details, I left them after 6 months of 21 turns).
Anyhow, the plant closed down and moved to Ohio , I think.

So in short, the workers bet against the multitasked work force, and lost.


Just something to think about.......


Dnk.....

renosteinke:
Yes, we fall under OSHA regulations, and getting them involved may be the answer. The other electrician is our union president, and he kinda likes the idea of others taking care of his workload. We have written job descriptions on file for each trade, and at one time he was going to file a grievance over this same issue, but I guess he changed his mind. I could do it myself, though. And yes, I've been doing this long enough to know what is considered electrical work. I work for the federal prison system, and each shop works a crew of inmates to help perform the work. We are having a problem with shop foremen being made to take a crew and install conduit, pull wire, install devices and equipment, etc. Our electricians take care of work and equipment that ranges from 120vac to 12,470vac. I think having an inexperienced foreman doing electrical work with inexperienced help just multiplies the possibility of someone getting hurt. And these guys don't know about sizing wire, conduit, overload protection, etc.
Zog:
My point exactly. I just wasn't sure if anyone here has ran into this sort of situation before, how they handled it, and if OSHA would be able to help.
Dnkldorf:
No disrespect intended, but I do think we are a specialized trade, and I have never, nor will I ever, multitask, as you call it. And I don't know why you think I have to because I'm in a union environment. I've been in the trade for 23 years, and have never been on a job, union or non-union, where we were expected to perform the work of other trades. If trades are not specialized, then why are tests and licenses given? I think you summed it up in your own words in your last paragraph. The place where you saw managers try this ended up with a strike on there hands, and finally closed their doors.

Strike...closed doors...prison....what's the problem?

It does sound like your concerns are valid. Also, my answer (above) was somewhat braod, as your issue is one that may apply to many different working environments.

A little off-topic, but here is an example of when my own ignorance led to my having unnecessary concerns:
I learned the trade in Chicago, in an industrial environment. All the air lines were of steel pipe. I come to Reno, and what do I find? Copper air lines. Different? Sure is. Legal? Turns out it is, and seems to work well. Had I run about screaming "the sky is falling," I would have made a fool of myself.

I spent about half my time in state prisons when I was the Florida state electrical inspector. This looks pretty normal to me.
Most of the "electricians" were really inmates anyway. I am not sure there was ever anyone who specialized in being an electrician. The state employees were mostly more on the "management" side of the work. They were just maintenance department employees. All that said some of the best work I ever saw was at Desoto Correctional from Ken Collingsworth and his <incarerated> drug dealers.
That wasn't as bad as the park system where they had rangers who saw enough Bob Vila to think they were electricians.

I always encouraged people to call me if they had a question about anything they were doing.
At a certain point I wasn't an inspector, as much as a consultant. Great gig tho and the money wasn't bad.

Yeah, I use inmates to pull wire and stuff like that. the stuff that takes more than one person. Very rarely do I find one that has any real experience, though. They apply for jobs with us just like on the street, and most of them want to work to pass the time, but they know very little of the trade. I end up doing most of the work, and all the layout. I teach the ones that want to learn something. Believe it or not, I've had three female inmates that completed the 8600 hour appenticeship program. They got a certificate from the Florida Dept. of Labor for it. One of the few fulfilling moments working for the govt. I could write a book from the things I've seen here. The taxpayers would have a fit if they knew.

Inmates seem to be the best conduit benders. They have nothing but time so they go slow and make things pretty. Desoto CI has a parallel run of conduits that has about 20 pipes and it runs the length of a BIG building, going over and around obstacles. It is truly a thing of beauty. All the conduit bodies line up, the curves all sweep in lock step and the variance of the pipes is less than you can see.

Over at Charlotte I had one job where an inmate had bent a perfect "2000" in 10' of 1/2" for the millenium and it had wire in it.
The super made them tear it out but I was willing to pass it, just for the whimsey.

It is an interesting place to work.
I have been "locked down" a few times, chased by COs with shotguns for driving into the wrong area and I saw a guy get killed in the yard once.
At Hendry they left me in the sallie port for over an hour once. I had the A/C on and I had my tunes. I really didn't care. There are harder ways to make $60 an hour.

Greg,
Wow!,
I'd like to see that.
For some strange reason, a prison doesn't really conjure up images of neat wiring.
(Sorry if I've just offended everyone that replied to this thread).

Oh, I don't know, Mike. As someone mentioned, prisoners have nothing but time. And what one would give for an occasional change of scenery....

I also would love to see pics of exceptional work- gives us all something to strive for!

You should contact your local electrical inspector. It sounds like your company is doing construction work with maintenance electricians. So probably they are not applying for permits and getting the necessary inspections. The local inspector can check his files and see exactly what has been done usder a permit.

Since I last posted on this issue, I have had the opportunity, for the first time, to work in a prison.

As other described, prison staff mainly supervised inmates in the performance of maintenance tasks. What was ironic was when I found that, of the four 'inmate electricians,' three were former employees of mine- and the fourth was from the parts house! I wondered why they just stopped coming to work....

I cannot speak as to other prisons, but this one certainly has qualified help. :-)

As for "multi-tasking"... it is true that trades are, by their nature, specialised. It is also true that a union environment can really make for some sily work rules. Ask any musician who's tried to plug in a radio at Carnegie Hall.... such 'work' is reserved for Union electricians!

(How does one get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice....)

My idea of electrical work also includes a fair amount of digging, rigging, plastering, some carpentry.... and the lines really get fuzzy when HVAC, alarms, data, phone, or anything with wires is involved! A problem only arises when I lack the tools, training, and competence to do the job; pity the fool who expects me to weld!

I've heard of some of the other prisons where the staff just supervised the inmates, and the inmates did all the work. That's mostly in state prisons from what I understand. We don't work like that where I am. I've been here for 11 yrs. and hardly ever do you find an inmate that knows very much about electrical work. Once in a blue moon you get lucky, though.
In response to a recent post, we are not required to get inspections on our work. I wish we at least had someone intenal that inspected our work.
But...recently, the problems I initially described have been occurring less. All the electricians banded together and complained. I also went to a labor/management meeting and voiced my concerns to one of the higher ups. We threatened grievences, and to file a complaint with OSHA.
We'll see that happens next.

I dunno about ya'll location's but here in Tx, there are alot of companies (industrial) that are big on Multi-tasking. In fact most of them won't Hire an "Electrician" They want a mechanic w/ electrical experience.
And from looking at the infrastructure of they're plants it shows.
Before I found my current job I did numerous interveiws at these type places.
One of the companies was a place that made Dock safety equipment, and they tried to get an ISO (?) 9000 certification, the inspectors walked in and left w/in 30 minutes. the place was that un-safe. and the Maintenance manager was teling me that he expected me to "Fix all the problems in 2 months, and then basically from then on I would be doing mechanic work, and welding"
He was really big on everyone knowing how to weld, he even wanted his engineers to learn welding. (like that was going to solve his problems).
IMHO I think it's a dis-service to even go this route.
I did another interveiw at a company that also wanted "a mechanic w/ electrical experience" this was at a cake factory, they (even in the wet areas) did everything in either emt or SO cord, and also had control panels w/ gaping holes in the side of them.
They also had these freezers w/ auto defrost sytems that didn't work (electrically) so they had a mechanical solution, instead of replacing the bad solenoids, they went for the manual valve turning solution. I didn't walk from this interview, I ran to my truck .............lol

Wow is it ever different in the USA! In Ontario, Canada the Occupational Health and Safety Act states:
182.(1)No worker shall connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations unless,
(a)the worker is an electrician under the Trades Qualification and apprenticeship Act or,
(b)the worker is otherwise permitted to connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations under the Trades Quallification and Apprenticeship Act.
(2)A worker who does not meet the requirements of clause (1)(a)or (b) may insert an attachment plug cap on the cord of electrical equipment or an electrical tool into, or remove it from, a convenience receptacle.

Basically if your not registered as an apprentice all you can do is plug something in or out!!

Eddy Current,
I have to disagree(for Ontario)as there are loopholes.I work all trades do all jobs.
Last week the two electricians were changing light bulbs while the engineers changed out 600v 30a motors.
Go figure they had no idea what fittings were needed and called me to show them.
I've seen sealtite ran over 100' with ac90 run through it and entire assembly lines HOT from bad splices and no grounds plus lots more.

On the flip side I'm an industrial electrician who goes on shift alone in charge of a 1500hp powerhouse at night.
You only have to be a licensed electrician if you contract in ontario.We don't hide it either,jobs get inspected and TSSA knows I work as a shift engineer.
There is a bill,C140 I believe that holds management responsible for the workers actions.
Basically if a non licensed worker is put on a job and gets hurt or kills someone the manager goes to jail.
This bill came into being as a result of the westray mine disaster where many people died horrid deaths as a result of self described worker competence.
IMHO this is a joke.
Try to explain why a plumber shouldn't wire an MCC and a sparky shouldn't run a 400hp boiler(BIG BOMB) to a business oriented MBA.You just can't.
In Ontario Canada if the worker believes he's competent and the manager agrees there no reason not to do any job.How can you call yourself competent for a specific task that you have never preformed?.
All trades end up cross trained just enough to be dangerous and liable in this atmosphere.
Trades are specialized by their very nature.
cheers

{Message edited to clean this post up}



[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 10-13-2006).]

I understand that alot of stuff is done when it's not supposed to but that still don't make it right. Call the ministry of labour and ask if it can be done. According to them only an apprentice or electrician can work on electrical, period. They don't know about every job out there being done and couldn't possibly enforce them. They will gladly come down and check everyones licences but someone has to tell them where and when the job is to be done. There are loopholes and ways around for everything until someone gets hurt.

Eddy Current,see page 167 rule 181 where it says "or a person with equivalent qualifications by training and experience shall connect,maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations"The word person means other than electrician or apprentice.
This is from the 2005 edition

So im wrong?Glad to hear it.I see the the proposed rules were to come into effect in april 2006.I looked through the 2006 OHS for the first time today and was amazed.So these proposed rules now superceed all other rules?If they do it's about time.They did pass right?
It would seem however that in areas other than construction they still do no require a licensed electrician.An example of this is REG 67/93 HEALTH CARE page 572 rule 68 1 and 2.This applies to my place of work.

We read this to mean that anyone may still work with live electricity under 300v as long as a CPR certified person is present.

Calling in the MLO to define this would likely start a ton of trouble.But with the wording the act uses few people truly understand what work can be carried out by who and where.
What do you think as i really don't know what to belive anymore?What phone number would i call?
cheers




[This message has been edited by frank (edited 10-14-2006).]