We had no lighting over an assembly area in the plant. I troubleshoot the situation and find we are not getting full voltage in out 480/277 breaker panel. So me and 2 other guys go upstairs to the electrical room i find the fuse panel for this breaker panel LPC2. Find that i have blown fuse on the A leg so i send one guy down to get me set up electrical gloves, fuse puller, and 100amp fuse. I radio to our new boss we call them section heads that i will need to shut down and change fuse. He says don't shut down yet. Well he comes up with the gloves on fuse puller in hand and fuse headed for the panel. I say hay you need to shut that down, he says no i dont we cant shut it down. Bull #$%@ its only lights. Well he pulls the fuse live with full load down stairs nothing shut off. They pullers break in half the fuse is hanging from the incoming side of the 480V he finally gets it out. Then goes to put in the new one not knowing what caused the fuse to blow in the first place. I looked at my buddy who is also in maint but doesn't have the elec experience i do and told him to move back so we backed up. The boss started to put the fuse in and it has some nice sparks at both ends and he pulls back and goes in agian finally getting the fuse in. then goes to shut the panel and i said why don't you check the legs and make sure its ok he did and it was. Luckily no one was hurt but this guy is suppose to be our leader and in charge no one trust him or wants to work with him. He has been with us about 3months. needless to say a formal incident has been filed and it is under investigation by the company starting tomorrow.

(small edit to appease the ratings committee)

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 09-05-2003).]

jlh, that guy's gonna' kill someone. He desperately needs a 'new assignment' as far away from you and your peers as possible, and likely some serious “administrative leave” without pay. It may be appropriate to question date and quantity of the guy’s OSHA-standards-based training and qualifications.

It may be time to independently contact your state's industrial safety/OSHA group. Spare no details during your interview{s}. If he doesn’t go away I would, and make it very clear my reasoning for doing so.

I would makes as many noted as possible about the incident, building on what you have written here if you need a place to start.

Er, fuses have no breaking or pickup current capacity when removed from or installed in energized fuseholders.

jlh,

Wow, does this guy have a boss that's approachable? It sounds likely that someone will eventually get hurt over there.

Take care of yourself and don't let this guy talk you into doing something that could get you hurt.

Please let us know what happens with this.

Bill

I know exactly what you guys are saying and that is how we all feel on our shift. We notified the saftey manager, HR, and about everyone else in the maint deptartment. We filled out incedent reports today. All the other maint guys on other shifts cant believe it. I have over 10yrs in maint and i would never do this. This guy is suppose to have over 20yrs. He has only been with us a short time like i said. We will see what happens and how this unfolds. He will not enfluence me or any others around me i can guarantee you that. That is why we are not just going to sit by on this one because he is going to get himself or someone else hurt. None of us will work with him.

jlh,
Bosses, eh?!.
They're all the same, the world over.
Odd paralell, I had a Boss try and show me a couple of months back how to pull a 600A HRC fuse, with the load still on it.
No gloves and when I asked him to wear them, he said that he didn't need them(it's only a fuse!).
I had the last laugh though, it's a bit different putting the new fuse in, eh!, especially when there is still a fault on the circuit.
1st degree burns to both hands and loss of composure.
"I told you so!" was heard to be spoken, which was met with not very nice comments!.

Well today the boss told one of the other maint guys that he is not allowed to use any tools or go on the shop floor to work on anything until monday when the Maint manager gets back with him. Not sure what will happen to the guy

jlh,
.
Good on you for filing this.
Do you guys have an Incident Register on site for any Accidents and occurences such as this?.
I'd agree with Bjarney, in saying that you should write down as much as you can now, about this incident while it is fresh in your head.
Even things like the weather on the day and the time of day that it occured, will make your account of the incident more credible, should this go to court!.
Believe me, I've been through this all before.

You can always find a time to shut down, especially if it is just lights!!!! One easy way to do it is to wait for break time, or lunch time. I had the maint. guys work through their breaks many times. They just have to take their break a little later.

I am glad to hear that you reported this. I also hope that this guy moves on soon. He may change his thinking a little, but he has shown his true colors.
Scott

jlh, watch yourself around this loose cannon, bro. Yes Scotts, I have worked through many breaks and lunches to shut stuff down. We never even did work hot when I was in a hospital maint dept, we could always coordinate a shut-down. Scary man to work around.

I know what you mean guys. Thanks for the understanding and support. I will keep you updated as to the outcome of this.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this whole thing and how the company handles it. I am hearing from reliable sources that the Maint management is trying to cover for him and everything else. With excuses like he didn't have a lock out yet or wasn't LOTO trained yet. Well if thats the case he shouldn't have been up there to begin with. Then they were asking all of us if we had it locked out before he came up. I said no we were troubleshooting the ckt and we found problem then told him we needed to shut it down and he said no wait i will come up. I think they are going to try to brush this under the rug because they don't want to look for another supervisor. I am not out to get the guy fired i just feel he should be wrote up and giving formal training so this doesn't happen agian. what are your thoughts.

Well then according to there logic if he was not loto trained according to the OSHA link he was not QUALIFIED to touch it right?And what does that have to do with it,HE DIDN'T BOTHER TO SHUT IT DOWN?How do you lock out a fusable disco or MCC while you work on it?Ask them if they ever saw a 480v disco shorted phase to phase on the line side.GOOD LORD IN HEAVEN.Ive see the results on 600v 400a the guy is blind and burnt threw thim across the room and blew two 1200a fuses in the building service entrance.The end of his career.not to mention the fuse holders are probable arc damaged and the fuse may be heating beacuse of resistive contact good job!

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 09-09-2003).]

I know what you mean. Well they are still investigating we had to talk to the saftey manager at work today. The guy tells me, he thinks alot of the stuff leading up to the guy changing the fuse was done wrong and that i should have had the system shut down. I told him i did nothing wrong that i was trobleshooting the system and iam aloud to do it live. Remember this is our saftey guy he says you show me were it says that in osha document i said if you are qualified then you can. He says ya a qualified electrician, i say i have a degree in industrial electrical maintenance and over 10yrs experience as well as LOTO training i think that makes me qualified. I told him you show me were it says you can change a 480v 100amp fuse in a live ckt that has just blown a fuse. He says i can't because your not aloud. I told him everything was being done safely and appropriatly until my boss said not to shut the system down and took over the job. This is a whole bunch of @#$%. Here us guys were tying to do something to be safe and this is turning in to a run around and abunch of crap.

(small edit - @#$% )

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 09-10-2003).]

Should not matter if it was energized or not he must take any and all actions to make sure it is de-energized before HE works on the equipment,but he knew that because he told you to not shut down.Again by their own addmission he was not LOTO trained,not that it matters here since he was working at the point of diconnection.How can they put a person in charge on the floor without the most basic of saftey training?Even if they don't care about the employees they should care about the lawsuits and fines.You are right they are wrong.Looks like you have only two things you can do.Keep pushing the argument and risk getting the "Golden Bullseye"(this is where management starts picking at everything you do) or let him kill himself and the company get its ass fined off.Your safety manager can consult the AHJ inspection dept Im sure they would have a few directives.Watch out for your job they may decide to make life hard if you force the issue.Good luck


[This message has been edited by frank (edited 09-10-2003).]

frank,
I agree with your comments totally!.
Bear in mind that life can be made just as hard for THEM too, if they want to go about things this way!.

i know what you guys mean, and if they want to play hard ball then bring it on. Iam not a little kid and i am tired of the games. I am getting copies of osha documents and anything else i can to cover my ass. I told them yesterday this is not a witch hunt we aren't out to get the guy fired or prove a point to management. Its the simple fact that i told them if this guy continues to do stuff like this he is going to get some one killed not injured killed. I told the HR lady i don't wan't my wife getting that call and have to explain it to my 4 kids. Our last boss was a good guy every time he came up to a machine you were working on first thing he ask was is it locked out if not he would say lock it out.

If you question someone like this guy, you are already in trouble. They will gang up and try to insult, berate and discredit you and then build a case against you. You will become the problem. Don't look for help from your co-workers because they all have someone to support and feed. Best to stay clear of this guy, and let him learn the hard way. The company will always take the we did nothing wrong position. What makes them right; is deep pockets, and the ability to document a unique list of excuses and blame. Large corporate safety programs appear to be established for show not practice. Corporations that practice safety usually have better employees along with increased production, and less down time.
Good Luck

OK Scott Breath one, two three....To say the the main person in charge of the LOTO program is not trained in LOTO. Well let's just think about it. In this day and age suppose something had happened to JM. He requests permission to lock out a panel. Get's denied the permission and the works on the circuit live. Then something horrible happens to JM. Well you can guess that his wodow would own the company.

Also suppose that something happened to the supr. Then the supervisors family sued the company. What defense do they have. Well he wasn't LOTO trained??? Why was he not trained on LOTO? when he should be in charge of the LOTO program?

I am sure that I will have more to say tomorrow when I calm down.
Scott

Well gentelmen the crap hit the fan today. When we got to work we were all called in seperately to a meeting with HR, Maint manager and Assistante Maint manager. All the people who filled out a report were given a level 3 write up and told that they saw a hazardous situation and let it happen. Know one knows what the supervisor who pulled the fuse got all i know is hes still our boss and working. The 3rd shift supervisor that witnessed it was wrote up but didn't tell what level he got. Now bear in mind that a level 3 is up there, if we go to a level 4 we could be fired its the company's decision. So 5 people possible a six or seventh have been given level 3's and this guy is still in charge of the shift even though he pulled the fuse. To me that aint right if it was so sever and hazardous that you give out 5 level 3's this guy shouldn't have been there today. This isn't over by far..............

If it was me, I'd go talk to an attorney. I believe you have been dumped on for blowing the whistle and there are federal laws against that. It clear your management has said, "Don't bother us again or else" so several of you are at risk anyway. Might as well make a Federal case out of it. You really don't have much to lose and a win might straighten out the company.

My gut tells me to stick with Jim's advice. I'm sure there are disadvantages that could be predicted and heck, you might start looking for that next job now rather than wait but don't let them make it look like you are the bad guy. This jerk put himself and others at risk by not heeding the obvious that a trained person would have heeded nor did he heed the protests of those who had tried to follow the chain of command and alert the supervisor of the need for the next level of safety (LOTO). He is in dereliction of duty, not you. The rest of them (safety officer and HR suits) are in collusion it appears. Their number one job is not 'safety' at this point, it's risk management and you and your complaint pose a risk to their normal operations or their financial bottom line. If they think they needed a good defense it's because you have a decent case with the assertion of this supervisor having done something wrong.

[This message has been edited by BuggabooBren (edited 09-18-2003).]

well i talked to osha i haven't filled a complaint but they said we have one. We all complained at work thursday about how can they justify what they did and also found out that the supervisor did not have LOTO training until after the accident. I talked to him and He lied threw his teeth he told the boss and managment that he never heard me say to i wanted to shut it down or heard me tell him to shut it down when he came up to the dissconnect. He said he thought it was shut down and he should have checked it he is at fault. Oh this p me off. Like i told the other guys he basically was going to let us hang out to dry when he made that statement. HR, saftey, and plant manager were suppose to review the information and get back with us today on weather they will change our discipline. I am not happy with this place at all.

jlh,
As much as I hate to say this, get out while you can, mate!.
It sounds to me that this place is run by a bunch of idiots and I don't think that you will do yourself any favours by staying there, look to save face while you can.

That is the biggest load of crap Ive ever heard.The CAW or UAW would have a field day with these clowns.He is at fault no one else.I would keep that letter,wait for him to do something stupid again and drop him first chance i got.Since physical restraint is now "company policy" that is.Just kidding, but I would demand a procedure in writting with regards to how to forcibly stop managment when my training tells me they are about to kill everyone in the room.No court in the land will see it there way.They must be either insane or stupid maybe both.

I forgot to mention that we also have a "Stop Work" policy and procedure (which isn't always the case every where). It comes down to any one person has the right and also the responsibility to 'stop the work' - by turning off the main, by turning off an ignition switch and removing the keys, by halting the work verbally, by almost whatever means is necessary' in order to avoid the exact situation you've had to encounter. You might do a www.google.com search on similar key words (LOTO, Stop Work Policy, or others) to find some of the appropriate language that adequately describes the risk you all were put under by this blundering, blithering fool.

Also, you will likely find that when the big guns (OSHA, etc) come in they, management, will do one of two things:
- they will keep covering for their boy-wonder so they and he can save face publically. He will, no doubt, take a good bit of heat privately in order to keep his job though and save their face, too.
- they will acquiesce (agree with your complaint) that he was in the wrong and back away from him like a hot potato and he'll be kicked to the proverbial curb while they pay their fine or whatever other penalty is due.

Here is another thought to this situation.
Not only was there a serious breach of safety, but how about the last 17!! days your mind and the other workers has been occupied with this incident instead of concentrating on the work at hand. Just an example of how a situation like this is dangerous not only at the time of occurrance, but for some time afterwords.

Pierre

Well if you have read the other post we got this dropped to a level 2, still crap and i refused to sign. I told the HR lady its just a matter of time before this guy kills someone and that they are in the wrong. And yes everyone is in a bad mood and concentrating on things other than work. I am preparing to look for other work. We will be retrained in LOTO tues or wed, and we are going to bring up that there LOTO train is a joke and lacking most of what osha requires. I was scheduled to work with this guy over the weekend he IMO is going to get hurt or hurt someone he is way to gun ho and uncarefull.

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000067.html

link to other thread which has my write up word for word and the drop to a level 2

jlhmaint,
Do they make you sign a (we trained you so if you kill yourself it's your fault) paper at the end of the training? We get tested and the whole 9 yards.


[This message has been edited by frank (edited 09-22-2003).]

Who does your training?We have in house people and our ESA inspectors always have some type of training going on for reasonable group/company prices.

The saftey guy at work does the training and we are suppose to retrain tomorrow. It is the worst trainning i have ever seen for LOTO. Well see if they changed anything tomorrow if not iam going to give this saftey guy a little advice and a pcs of my mind agian. Also gave the HR lady a number and name at osha to call the guy at osha said i should tell her to call him because he would like to talk to her. I didn't file a complaint yet i told her i think we can settle this in house. I already know i might as well look for another job because iam sure iam on there black list now. But if thats the case iam going to do everything i can to keep the guys that work there safe after iam gone.

Well the training only takes a 1/2 hr, but it is getting better and they are making up procedures for how to lock out every mach and were. The saftey manager says we were wrote up more for not following saftey procedure that we should of powered down the disconnect and pulled the fuse to check instead of checking the voltage i said bull $#!@. Any way i think they have it out for me now. i was counceled today for clocking in 1 min before the stated time that i should clock in for work. Told them thats BS. I am looking for new position outside of the company.

When they gripe for someone who shows up ONE WHOLE MINUTE early, there's definitely some handwriting on the wall. Why, that's just shameful of you ripping off a whole minute's worth of payroll at your exhorbitant wage... tsk, tsk, tsk.

When no one is looking....
Find the circuit that feeds the time clock. Hook up a 1:2 tranformer on a push button switch. Hide all the wire, transformer, and button.
Hit the button every once in a while, and see if they can hire an electrician to trouble-shoot it.

Hi all i am still alive and kicking at the same factory. Things have quieted down a bit. I did talk with the saftey director and he said in few words or less if my boss would have been LOTO trained he wouldn't have a job and that he is in a far worse position than the rest of us. The boss is a dum as$ doesn't know much and doesn't do much. I just got back from cincinnati on training for some CNC and i am going to Chicago Sunday. Told the wife i will see how things go and not do anything rash until after the holidays when my next raise is due and make some decisions then.

Good for you to be able to see this situation with a little clarity, some vindication thrown in, and the opportunity (and foresight) to do your own career planning on your terms with a little time and temperance on your side.

'Charge for the Guns'... eh.
Thats nuts. I survived one electrical explosion , I would flat refuse to work for this guy.
But I know you cant do that.
Did he at least put the gloves on when he changed the fuse?
That kind of behavior is surely going to get someone killed.

Tom

Oh, BTW, when you interview for a new job, avoid "bad mouthing" your old boss. Even though in this case you'd be more than justified. The new place might think that you are hard to get along with, tough to manage, and such. As they don't know the true situation at the old place. Do the talk about how you wnat to advance your career, and such positive sounding stuff instead.

I know what you all are saying and thanks. I now what to say and when to say it at the interviews and i will not bring this up. I don't have to worry much about working with him because, us guys on the floor do are own thing and keep things running and anymore he just sits in the office and thats the way we like it. If we have a problem we handle it and if he comes out we tend to disapear one by one. Even when he go's to a call for maintenance he is only there a couple min and calls one of us and then he leaves so o well. Like it was said I do like the job and the benifits and money. I don't look for him to be around much longer.

jlh,
It's good to see that things are finally returning to some sort of normality at you workplace.
Just goes to show what having one idiot in the team can do!.

Thanks for all the support guys. I think the guy doesn't know his A from a hole in the wall. Just today he comes out and this transfer motor we have wont shut off just keeps running. He wants to pull wires off motor starter and all this stuff. I said its a bad sensor or a PLC output card. Sure enough he leaves and 10min later its a bad PLC card and a sensor. Oh well i work tomorrow and then i leave for chicago for a week of trainning and RR at Fanuc in Hoffman estates for some more CNC control classes.

jlh,
The guy sounds like a complete nutter!.
Best of luck on your courses, though.

JLH--
Been there done that

Got wrote up twice in the last six months for it too.

HOWEVER--
I sleep like a baby because my conscience is clear. I have finally convinced my super that when I'm in a live panel troubleshooting, that he just doesnt need to reach around me.

Some people just learn slower than others, bro. Hang in there its okay to be opinionated when it comes to safety.