I got energized the other night, thought I'd share what happened.

We were demoing a grocery store. A former ice cream parlor had a short hot water heater in it. The foreman said to demo it (remove it). I pulled the plate off to reveal the wire nuts. The foreman put his tester on it to show that it was dead. He said, "It's dead. Go ahead and demo it." I put my tester on it right behind him. My tester showed no power. The foreman went around the room, tracing other circuits, flipping a couple of switches. I disconnected the wire nuts and my finger touched a wire and it energized me. I turned to the foreman and said, "I just got hit. This thing's hot." He said, "No way." I put my tester on it and it showed power. He put his on it and it showed power. We were surprised.

I suggested that maybe the hot water heater might have been connected through a switch, since he was turning switches on and off during the time I was removing wire nuts. He said, "No, it wouldn't be wired through a switch."

Nobody was able to get into the electrical room to flip circuit breakers on at that time, so I know that wasn't what caused the circuit to be energized.

I'm lucky because I was standing in water at the time, but it didn't go over my soles to the leather and soak in, and I didn't have any holes in the soles. The water was about 1/4" deep. All it would have taken was a thumbtack in the sole of my shoe, or the hole left behind by one, to put a grounding path right to my foot!

I think the hot water heater was somehow wired through a switch. We'll never know because we just had to keep on demoing the stuff out.

Just when you think you've done enough to be safe, something unexpected can come out of nowhere to bite you. Being careful isn't enough, you have to be clairvoyant.

Can anybody here tell me a story of how they got energized so I can learn from their mistakes? I've heard of people leaving wrenches in switchgear to fall down later and go phase to phase, blowing up in a guy's face. Sometimes these things come out of nowhere and certain "shocking" situations are very hard to predict.

Maybe your area is different but, where I'm from, you can't assume a w/h is going to remain unenergized. In much of Wisconsin, we have off-peak, radio controlled water heaters, electric heat, and air-conditioners. Just because the juice is off one minute, does not mean it won't come back on the next. That w/h should have had a disconnect of some kind so it is possible that one of the switches turned it back on (since you say it was a small w/h it may have only needed a 2 pole, 20 A toggle switch). If a disconnect is not present, the source of power MUST be found before making contact with potentially live wires.

I told this story once some time ago when this subject came up in another thread, so here goes. When I was a student at University of Houston a number of years ago, I was helping a wonderful gentleman who was the stage manager at Cullen Auditorium - we were replacing a couple of burned out autotransformer dimmers in the stage lighting switchboard. In order to do this we had to shut off power to the 600 amp feeder from the MDP in the basement of the building - no LOTO, just a lock on the door to the switchgear room. We opened the breaker, then attached a warning notice directly over the handle, then left after locking the room. While we were installing a replacement dimmer (and while nearly all of my body from my waist up was inside the switchboard), several pilot lamps lit up, indicating that the power was turned back on . Miraculously I backed out of the switchboard without bumping up against several large phase busses which ran the entire length of the board. The stage manager and I went downstairs to the basement, found the switchgear room door open, the feeder breaker turned on, and the warning note wadded up and thrown on the floor. We turned the breaker off again, closed the door and hid in a corner of the room behind the MDP panel. A few moments later, a secretary opened the door and entered the room and turned on the breaker again, whereupon we detained her until the University Police arrived. When asked why she disregarded the warning, she said that the air conditioner in her office had gone off (apparently a wiring problem resulted in her a/c being connected to the same feeder breaker (600amp, 3 phase, mind you) as the stage lighting switchboard in the theater. She was more concerned about the heat in her office than the fact that we were doing electrical repairs . Aside from immediately being fired, I don't know what happened to this stupid person, but a long stretch in prison should have been part of the punishment - or maybe a psychiatric evaluation.

Mike (mamills)

I get hit when I get confident,

When I havn't been hit in a while I tend to get confident and start letting down my guard. I think it is just a natural instinct.

I was demoing some 277V lighting and standing on my 8' ladder. I took off the 4 square blank cover plate and reached my fingers in the j-box and pulled the wires out.

Well un-benounced to me, one of the neutral wires was stripped way to long. There was exposed bare copper wire past the wire nut and when I put my two fingers around it to pull it out of the j-box. I got zapped pretty darn good.

I had to take a five minute break. I was holding a metal air vent plumbing pipe and the amperage went from my right hand and out my left hand via my heart.

I don't make that mistake any more. Even when I feel confident. I hate when others strip their wires to long.

Peace out.

Mamills, that's a good story, and I never thought about detaining somebody and turning them over to the police for throwing a breaker of a circuit I'm working on, but it gives me ideas. How amazing that you guys hid and busted her in the act. Too bad you couldn't run sheetrock screws up through her chair or something so she could feel the pain a little herself. That just makes me mad that she would do something so retarded.

Straightedge, that's a good lesson, I try to be careful pulling wires out of a box but there are times when I know that if a wire had been bare like that it could have gotten me. I'll learn from your story to stay careful when pulling wires out of a box. It's a good reminder not to ground myself when reaching into a box by steadying myself on a duct or something metallic.

I worked with a guy who calls hot sticks "idiot sticks" and doesn't use them, but he got hung up twice in one night on 277 lighting and gets shocked more than anybody I've worked with yet. He uses his body as an "idiot stick". The night he got shocked, he had to take a long break both times and he got a lot more irritable than usual. It ruined his whole night and after the 2nd shock he didn't return to normal and finally had to go home for the day.

[This message has been edited by Spark Master Flash (edited 08-21-2003).]

I was on a roof helping several other guys pull out a 50 hp a/c compressor.
I asked if the power was off.
Answer was Yes.
I asked if the fuses were pulled.
Answer was Yes.

I stuck an allen wrench in the terminal block and got 277v. thru one arm out the other arm to the panel I was leaning on.

I finally fell down and woke up with a helper trying to check on me.

I find out later the other service tech was a speed freak.

My lesson:
Never trust anyone with YOUR life.
Check power for yourself and lock it out with your key. If they don't like it screw 'um.

thread moved to Occupational Safety Area.

I started doing electrical work when I was 18 years old. I had been in the trade for about three months, and we were doing a remodel job at a office building with 277V lighting. One of the people I worked with required me to work on a live 277V J-box that could have been easily disconnected. He said "eventually you will have to work hot, so you might as well do it in front of me so I can show you what you do wrong". I HAD BEEN IN THE TRADE 3 MONTHS!!!

I think this sick S.O.B. just got his jollies on watching some poor kid get lit up. I had no business in that J-box. I would like to run into that individual again and have a nice "discussion" with him.

BTW, I didn't get shocked.

Good lesson, Wolfdog, I always check my own stuff, even if somebody else checks it in front of me with their own equipment. One guy I work with says, "Only a fool doesn't check his own sh*t."

Ryan, on my first day as an electrician, they put me to work in the office changing hot receptacles and switches. I asked them to turn off the circuit and they said, "We can't turn off the circuit, the fax machine's on it." I allowed as to how I don't care about their fax machine, how about my life, and they said they can't turn off the fax. I went ahead and did it after asking the boss if it's customary to work live power. He said it is sometimes. I said, "If that's customary, I'll go ahead and do it." I changed a bunch of recepts and switches, all of them hot. Got mildly energized once on that day. Nothing I read in books before that said I'd have to work live power, so in my inexperience I had to mentally adjust in about 30 seconds to the concept of working live power. I've done it plenty of times now, but luckily I haven't been shocked until the other night.

3 months is early to be told to work live 277, hopefully you'll restrain yourself when you see the guy! One foreman might let an apprentice work live power on his first day, another won't let an apprentice work live power after a year of experience.

i usually get hit when distracted. once i was standing in front of an elctric fence and there was an 'electric fence' sign two feet in front of me.

someone started to chat and i casually reached for the fence as support and wrapped my hand completely around the top wire before i knew it. boy it hurt. i can now empathize with cows.

my other shocking story was when i was working on switchboard bear in mind this is 4160 volts and myself and other electrican we both did check the power make sure it is dead and useing hot stick to test it make sure it dead by the hot stick it say dead and his tester say the same but my nonconcat tester say diffrent and i mention to him it still holding juice somewhere it was reading about 230 volts left in the busbar then we go ahead ground it out well it was static charge on line then some how some idoit did not read our warning sign about power is off it was PRINTED IN THREE (3) LANGUNGES one was in english second one was french the thrid one was in spanish then i heard very loud buzz right over my head and my hearing aid can hear" electric noise" and i told my parnter to get out fast because i was only half meter away from the main bussbar and got the guy who did turn on the switch and i expain to him by acting because he not really know engish at all and what to make thing matter worse this fella is dedextric ( sorry for spelling i cant find the engish verison for can't read words)and he say dang i didnt know that because his office light was off grrrrrrrrr what a day and cost to replace the large 4160 volts fuse was no fun but after that i get wise is take the fuse out next time

merci marc

Pretty much Guys,
A lot of these "Accidents" could be put down to lack of thought to the task at hand!.
I'm not meaning to sound silly about this, but, for what I have read over the last few postings, more testing of the test equipment, should have been performed, before it was connected to the "source under test", take a known LIVE supply and check your test equipment by that, simple Electrical Theory.
If I had my Live-Line Alarm (a Modie-Wark) anywhere near HV lines, I would check the darned thing, first at the voltage that I required it to work at, for a start, to make sure that the sucker worked.
Even with Low Voltage work, I always use a known source of Voltage to test the Integrity of my Duspol testers.
Life is far too short to go wasting it away on bad Voltage measurements, especially from 0-400V.

Trumpy, I am just an apprentice dummy, I was using my tester all night and so was the foreman, as I said we tested it back to back and the only thing that changed after the tests was that a light switch was thrown on the other side of the room.

Sometimes when you change a fixture, you can just turn off the switch that controls it instead of tracing the wire all the way through the ceiling through the whole building to the panel, which in this building is completely unmarked. Maybe it's not as good as turning off the circuit breaker, but electricians do it. If all the circuits in the room are shut off at the panel except one, and the hot water heater shows no power on 2 different testers back to back that have been working fine all day and we did test on live power first, I think it's reasonable to go ahead and work in the j-box. If the boss hits a switch and some jackass had wired the hot water heater to such an unrelated circuit, it's understandable that an accident could occur. Sure, it's all human error. Hell, my birth was human error. When the boss says he shut off the circuit breaker and I test it and it's dead, I go ahead and work on it. I can't open every j-box all the way back to the panel and trace the wire back to do a little disconnect at the end of the line. If it's dead, I work on it, and that's the reality I see on the job. We don't have time to go through that much research for small tasks like that. People make mistakes. Hardware fails. Jobs have limited budgets for manhours, they're not all union T&M jobs, so you can only be so safe. A guy could spend $1,000,000 to disconnect a water heater if he goes far enough to eliminate all risks. Safety is first, but nobody has a big enough budget to eliminate all risk from the job. Sometimes we have to stand on top of a 12 foot ladder. Sometimes we have to reach with a drill pushing a Unibit. We make mistakes and hopefully we can learn from each other's mistakes. It seems like you are implying that if we wouldn't all be idiots acting foolishly, we wouldn't get shocked, so why talk about it? It's not always that simple, but all of us have done something wrong accidentally, whether it shocked us or not. Brain fade, fatigue, long hours, hunger, many things can lead to a wrong move. Nobody knows it all, nobody is infallible. It's eye-opening, for those of us who haven't reached perfection yet, to hear examples of what led to somebody getting shocked. We are safer as a result of hearing these stories. We learn not to let it happen to us when we hear of it happening to somebody else.

Well said, "Spark Master Flash"

I hate getting told by some of these guys. Like we are stupid and incompetent and are trying to get shocked. They are so unrealistic.

You are right, We are the top 10% of our trade simply because we read these threads and are seeking out knowledge about our trade. Which will help us be safe by learning from others mistakes.

Be Safe.

Tev Castro

Spark Master Flash,
straightedge,
Look fella's, I'm sorry if I appeared to be putting you guys down, for lack of testing or so forth, I apologise if any offence was taken at my comments.
I must say, also that no-one is perfect and I too have done some pretty silly things in the past, due to lack of thought and I've wrecked more than one set of Pliers and Sidecutters in the time that I have been involved with Electrical work.
Yes, straightedge, we are ALL here to learn from others experiences and I will freely admit to not knowing everything, that's probably why I am here at ECN!.

Hey Trumpy,

Thanks, no problem, I hope I didn't seem to go too overboard. I'm glad I can come here to talk about things, because if my co-workers can't enlighten me, somebody here can and I'm a better and safer electrician than I was before, and it happens overnight, thanks to the internet and this forum.

Take care, have a good one.

Spark Master Flash,
Well, SMF, if here is here, you may have just found the best place to do this!.
Demolition work is never simple and disconnecting circuits while there are a million other things going on around you, does not make life any easier either.
The idea that the switch-board room that you guys had no access to, sounds a bit dangerous!.
(Can anyone else tell me if this is allowed in the US?.)
With respect to getting access to it in an Emergency?.
But SMF, It sounds to me like you had a rather rough Intro to the Electrical Trade in the US, getting a shock so early in your "time' does nothing for the confidence.
Being a guy who trains Apprentices in both Electricians work and Line- work, I know to do a decent assessment of the risk, before work even starts!.
SMF, ever need some advice?, you've just found the home of it, ECN!!

Greenlee Audible/visual non contact voltage tester is my friend!

Was running some new (additional) 3/4 EMTs to comply with an AHJ w/ attitude (ever seen one?) over # of conductors in raceway.

Was pulling "old" wire out of "old" EMT when I got "tingled". Same thing, on top of a ladder through body to other hand. Luckily, it was only 110, and so I felt it in the "working" hand.
I shouted to my super "HEY...did you kill this blue line?"
He answered "yeah...oh, wait a minute"
CLICK of a breaker.
I hear this sheepish voice "Sorry, there are two blues!"

Now I check everything. It only takes a second, and it makes life easier, and longer.

Other time was when I was rewiring my house, and didn't realize that several neutrals had been piggybacked. (Was rewiring old Rubber/cloth with THHN, and was trying to keep most of the house powered.)

Had killed the hot for the circuit I was working on, but with the aforementioned cross-connection to a circuit under load, well...

Using Kliens to strip neutral, and hit the side of the 1900...

POP...there goes the night vision, and the 12awg strippers were now 10awg...

I killed the Main for the rest of the work that evening... and I was glad I didn't grab the end (while standing in water!).

Trumpy, we did have access to the electrical room, but we were the only ones. Nobody else could have turned a breaker on. That's what I meant.

Doug, I'm with you on checking power every time. Every box I go into, I check for power with my Fluke hot stick. That thing works pretty well, ignoring anything under 90v. Not as sensitive as the last one I had, it discerns hot and cold wires better than the other one. The guys at work like my Fluke more than their hot sticks after working with them side by side. I'm not aware of what might be better. I also use a Fluke tester with amp clamp when I have to.

You know, those neutrals can surprise a guy, can't they? I'm always leery of neutrals, I know how people use a neutral across different circuits, and under an amp load they can get me, so I treat them like they're hot. I've never been hit by a neutral, knock on conduit.

Some of the guys I've worked with say that a neutral can hit you harder than a hot wire, and I wonder how that can be. Maybe somebody can enlighten me on this. Harder than a hot wire? Seems impossible.

That old cotton covered wire is scary looking stuff, it's hard to trust it not to crack when I bend it. A friend of mine has an older house with a wall heater in the bathroom. I took it apart and found that cotton covered wire, it looked like a short waiting for a place to happen, plus there's no ground with it. I didn't know there was rubber inside. Never have worked with it.

12 awg turned into 10 awg...har har, I've got a pair of cable cutters like that. Different cause, though - I had to learn not to cut more than one wire at a time.

Zapped a good pair of Klein needlenose moving wires around in an old, overstuffed box. I can't stand working with tools that look like they were used for a freshman welding class, so I went straight out and bought a new pair. Am I wrong to do this? Working with zapped tools is like being a stuntman with one eye and a bad limp, going by the name of "Lucky". Just looks bad.

Spark Master,
I'd say that Neutrals can be just as dangerous as a Phase wire.
I've worked on circuits where the Neutral has been commoned up with other different circuits and when the Neutrals are cut at a fitting, you end up with the line voltage on the ends of some of the Neutrals.
I have heard of Electricians being electrocuted when hooking a Neutral conductor in to the Neutral busbar on a switch-board panel and getting a hand-hand shock, by touching the end of the wire and the busbar at the same time.
A Neutral is not a Neutral until it is connected to it's proper busbar, besides, I wouldn't personally hook up a circuit with the circuit energised.
You mentioned the Fluke tester with the amp-clamp on it, is this the T-5 600/1000, you are referring to? .

Hey Trumpy,

What do you mean when you say that neutrals can end up with line voltage at the ends when they're cut at a fitting? By fitting, do you mean wire nut or other termination? I should test the voltage more often on neutrals.

Why does a neutral sometimes have line voltage on it? I know that a neutral is supposed to carry the balance of the load of the hot wire, it's surprising to read that it can have full line voltage.

My Fluke is the new 336, 600 volts true rms with amp clamp, it does everything I want it to do, including DC volts and DC amps. My co-workers said I wouldn't need the DC part of it, but sometimes I work on my vehicle or other DC setup like alarms, so I really want DC capability.

I had a cheap meter, then stepped up to a Greenlee 1000v, but it was inconsistent and I returned it for another, but they didn't have another one so I took the Greenlee 600v meter instead. I was happier with that one, I like the smaller clamp to get into tight areas, but both Greenlees took forever to zero out and that was a pain.

I love the Fluke, to me it's worth the extra money. It zeroes out super fast and has all the features I want.

Thanks for the story about electricians getting electrocuted on a neutral busbar & wire, I'll remember that. I'll start checking voltage at the neutral and at the neutral busbar so I know what voltage is present. Maybe I'll even test the amperage on neutrals. I've seen neutrals that were hooked up to hot wires, so I know not to assume that a hot or gray wire is truly a neutral.

Spark Master,
Just remember that in a single Phase circuit, the Neutral is a Return conductor, to the Neutral busbar.
I have been shot down, here before, for calling the Neutral a return conductor, but, that's what it is.
Only in a 3 Phase Wye(Star) system, does the Neutral, carry the out-of-balance current.
However, if you do happen to cut a bunch of Neutrals at a fitting(light fitting),that carry return current from other circuits, you are in effect, dealing with Phase wires, because, unless that wire is tied to a Neutral reference, it becomes a Phase wire.(Basic Electrical Theory)

Trumpy, you're saying that a neutral carries 120 volts (or 277) if it's disconnected, and that it's carrying 120 volts (or 277) to the neutral busbar?

Yup, that's exactly what I am saying!.
ONLY in the situation where the circuit is still live!.
Strike me down with Lightning, for saying this though.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 08-30-2003).]

Spark Master,
Hey,
Thanks for bringing this actual topic up!.
I am sure that we can ALL learn by each others mistakes, big or small.
To all that want to post here, just go ahead, you are more than welcome, to do so!.
We more or less learn by stories that are related to us!.

thought I would add to this thread. One of the guy's in our company took the cover off a pull box and a poorly taped bugnut grounded out to the box. Lucky for him, he had turned his face away, but still had to go to the eye doctor for treatment for the flash in his eye. He is ok, just goes to show that you can never take anything for granted. As they say, most times it is not the voltage, but the flash that can kill you, (falling off a ladder, lift, etc).

heh~

you know what Spark Master Flash?

we were all apprentice dummies here at one time

IMHO we owe it to those up and comming to show them safe and proper practices.

Steve (aka former 'dummy') sparky

Just to add to the neutral voltage thing. If you did not wire it you cannot guarantee that there is no voltage on the neutral. At the place I used to work at there was a 3 phase breaker that used 3 white wires for carrying the power. There was another time the guys were wiring up a welder. When Joe went to hook up the machine he found that the neutral had 70 volts on it.
Scott

If, in a branch circuit that has one hot, one neutral, and safety ground, and a load attached at the far end, you have an open neutral connection in a box close to the circuit breaker panel, the neutrals closer to the load than the break is located will be hot. If the load is a 60W light bulb, you can get zapped as hard as if you contacted the black wire and a ground with the other hand.

And then there is the case where a run of BX or romex is used to go to a light switch and back. The white wire is hot. IIRC, you're supposed to reidentify it, but few people do.

As a Line Mechanic/Faultsman, I used to get called up all the time to fit the first sets of fuses (Primary Drop-outs and Secondary HRC links) to new houses and new re-developments, from an Inspector that I used to work with.
I would always ask the Inspector, for the TEST RESULTS.
One day, this really tripped me up.
I was sent out to commission a new Underground Development just south of here, I was told that the O/Head part had all been tested and signed off by the Senior Network Operator.
What I didn't know was the fact that, I got the word from the wrong person and also that the lines were Interlinked and EARTHED at the other end, some 3 mile down the road!.
So, you can imagine what happened when I fitted the second Drop-out fuse.
I've still got a scar from where a hot piece of DDO holder went down my back!
Never again, Eh!.

here in germany, the first thing you learn in that business is the 5 safety rules:

1. Switch off
2. Assure not to be switched on again (Sign)
3. Check for voltage
4. Ground and short-circuit line
5. Cover hot parts next to your work

unfortunately, often only 1.-3. are done...

had to work on a hot line in my job as electronics engineer several times till i decided not to do it anymore for stupid reasons.

doing a service receptacle change in an office of the company i work in
"we can't shut this down, dont know which breaker this is hooked on"
-"no problem". pulled out the old rusty side cutter and just cut the cable, shocking the office employees BANG. "now go ahead and mark the damn breaker"...

my luck that there was no RCD, otherwise i'd darkened some 15+ PCs...
if i get the guy that installs a 20 breaker panel and doesnt mark a single one...

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-18-2003).]

Gidday Andy!!,
Welcome to the Electrical Forum there, mate.
Yes, I must say that I agree with you, on the marking of panels, over here in New Zealand, you get very simple, if not, non-existant markings on our panels, most of the time you have to go by the ampere ratings on the MCB's.
You rewire or wire a whole place(taking probably half a week) and then you can't even spend 5-10 minutes identifying the circuits you have just installed, people like these, really annoy me!.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 10-20-2003).]

hi trumpy, thanks for the nice welcome!

i always mark my work, but i dont do building installations this often. identifying the cables you just installed is too late! just mark them while installing. we always do. insert the installed cable to the panel, cut on lenght (leaving some extra lenght) and mark with waterproof felt-tip onto cable.

and of course, mark breakers when connecting the cables to them.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-23-2003).]

Andy,
You're on to it mate!.
I wish everybody did the same as you, it is required by the Regulations over here, but most of our wire pullers, just thumb their noses at the law and on to the next job.
Hey, Andy, It's interesting how far a small thing like this can go!.
I was wiring a new Picture Theatre, a few years ago with an Apprentice and I told him to mark the cables at the panel end, as we installed them and cut them off.
He used sticky paper labels, which would have been OK, had a plumber not pressure-tested his pipes in the roof, and one of the seals blew out, soaking the whole panel area, we came back to find all the labels on the floor under the panel position.
Had to bell out 147 cables, I was not happy!.

in the beginning, when you're not so perfect into things, you do nice actions. as me. cut and strip 10+ cables in a panel, then realized i cut all cables without transferring the marks to the stripped phases....... 10 pieces of cables on the floor, now go puzzling...

this was a panel for production hall lighting, so we just hung a phase onto a breaker, switched on, looked which lights were on, switched off and marked...

Just today I got reminded that elevator lighting is usually connected to an emergency circuit and is not pulled through the disco for the elevator. And to not trust anybody but me with my safety.

Also--the neutral question.
We were working on a small 110 cicuit w/o much extra wire, shared neutral and our breaker off. The other guy handed me the neutral to hold out of the way, I was ok until I leaned on the column next to me. Unbalanced load can be a killer.

Another case for non-contact AC-voltage testers. No reason why you can't use it on parted neutral conductors. False-positive readings can be verified/”disqualified” by other means.

As I said, we both checked it, no power. Then he went around the room and flipped a couple of switches. Then I got hit. Then I checked it again and it was hot. He checked it again and it was hot.