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Posted By: Bill Addiss How do you feel about Safety? - 06/18/03 06:35 PM
First,
Let's get past the 'Safety is a Business' and 'Corporate America is looking out for itself' if we can. Let's assume degrees of this are apparent to everyone.

Let's talk Basics;
Do you as a worker feel that you should be able to work as safely as possible? What could be, or should be done to improve the level of safety where you work?

Any ideas how to get the 'other guys' on the same track so that they don't endanger you or someone else?

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 06-18-2003).]
Posted By: sparky Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/18/03 10:02 PM
Ideally the worker should be let to have a say in the decision process
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/18/03 10:27 PM
Sparky,

Which decision process?
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/19/03 05:33 AM
Bill,
Great idea!! [Linked Image]
Posted By: iwire Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/19/03 09:41 AM
My attitude towards safety has certainly changed over time thanks to the company I work for now.

I never knew the term PPE did a lot of work hot when it did not have to be.

I never knew about fall protection, I remember straddling an I-beam at 120' to change out a motor.

When I think back and realize how many times I put my life at risk for no other reason than I am a man and I am not afraid, I feel rather stupid.

The hourly wage I receive does not come close to enough for me not to every see my family again.

Now on the other side the GCs that take safety to the point that you can not work makes me resent overblown safety programs and I think this can be as bad as no program.

Some of the GCs or large customers we work for interpret the OSHA six foot rule for everything.

Use a ladder and your feet are over 6 feet off the ground they expect me to ware a harness and tie off.

In an office building where can I tie off, or with an extension ladder where do I tie off to.

But that's our problem, if I do not tie off I expose the company to fines from the GC or customer.

So we tie off to what ever we can, if I do fall I will end up pulling down plumbing or duct work etc on top of me.

Another large company we work for requires 2 people to carry anything longer than 8', need a stick of 3/4" EMT and you have to get a coworker to help!

One entire day safety class for any employee we bring to the site, if we do not follow the rules, fines and removal from the site.

There has to be safety with commonsense

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 06-19-2003).]
Posted By: sparky Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/19/03 10:38 AM
Bill,
The most obvious loophole is the 'live work' scenario. That which an employee , given proper PPE cannot refuse.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/19/03 04:47 PM
Sparky,

Of course he can refuse.
Are you talking about untrained persons?
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/19/03 11:07 PM
Bob,

Belated thanks for the reply,
I've done some genuinely stupid things myself that I didn't think enough about at the time and realize now that there was much I didn't know.

As far as the Safety-Overkill goes I have never experienced that at all. Is that all figured into the job?

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/19/03 11:22 PM
Bill,
let's say your 'qualified', your told to tap 3/8/16" into a 1200A 480V buss live because the plant can't shut down

your given the proper ppe, however you feel that your loss of tactility and close quarters make this unsafe.

can you LEGALLY refuse to do your job?


~S
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/20/03 03:15 AM
Sparky,

I don't know what you mean by 'LEGALLY', but sure you could refuse if you felt it was unsafe.

I don't know what the options are working within the system as it is. How are procedures evaluated as to what types of work can be done and what PPE is necessary?

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/20/03 10:52 AM
Bill,
subpart S has this sneaky little clause that all the safety guru's don't like to talk about.

you can't refuse , you can be fired, and you'd have NO say whatsoever legally.

this is why, when the safety community touts thier 'team effort' i get upset

they are beyond contempt in doing so.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/20/03 03:02 PM
sparky,

Why don't you address that issue specifically and see what comes of it? You can't just send every safety discussion into the dumpster because you feel that one facet of the system doesn't work the way you think it should. That's my opinion.

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/20/03 07:43 PM
as you wish Bill.....
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/21/03 02:32 AM
Steve,

I just think that everyone should get to tell their side of things without getting jumped on. And, I don't mean to jump on you either, I'm a bit sensitive about some things too..

peace
Bill
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/21/03 04:45 AM
Bill,
I think I may have said this before, but,
Safety is a personal thing, in that How much you value having your life and other things like having limbs and fingers.
PPE(and it's use) is one thing that I am very hot on, if I see a worker at a site doing something that may injure them and they are not wearing appropriate PPE, I normally have a word with them.
I'm not being silly about this, you wouldn't pull everyone up for just little things, but hand in hand with Safety goes Common-Sense.
When I start a job,that could be hazardous to my personal safety, I do an assessment of the risk, it goes like this:
  • Stand back and take a look at what you are about to undertake, for 5 minutes.
  • Think about how this task can be performed as safely as possible.
  • There are ways around ALL situations, I've "hooked-over" 33kV lines at night, while these were carrying quite a heavy load, it was all done safely and with the minimum of fuss.
  • Think what could happen if you slip with a tool while you are doing this task.(will you need cover-up gear?)
  • Is there a chance that the actual CONNECTION can be done at a different time when the power CAN be shut down.
  • What sort of PPE will you need for the job?.

It's just things like this that have kept me alive over the past few years, in some pretty dangerous situations, but you just have to learn to take it all in your stride.
Sure, I have the right to refuse to do work that I think is too dangerous, but, if you sit down and have good look at the task ahead of you,things don't seem so bad!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/21/03 05:41 AM
Most safety on the job seems to point to using a little common sense,as Trumpy points out.

Watch where you step/climb. Being more deliberate can save you sometimes.

When working on a scaffold or tall ladder,the biggest enemy imho is fear of heights. If you let fear get the upper hand,you're much more prone to fall.

Russell
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/21/03 06:58 AM
Russell,
You're quite right there, mate!.
I had an apprentice Liney working with me recently.
He assured me, he was cool with hieghts, and that was OK until I asked him to hop up on the top cross-arm (carrying 11kV 3phase), he got up there OK, but, I had to get him down, after he looked down and saw that he was a long way up in the air.
I hate doing Ladder Carry-Downs, without a line, and I normally ONLY do these for the Fire Service!.
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/27/03 11:39 AM
My experience with this situation

If you were to take a look at the age group of workers who are seriously injured, you would see mostly younger and older people. My belief is the younger are not trained yet or are not being properly trained, and the older ones have had 'good' luck and their luck has run out. How many times does one hear '120 can't hurt ya!'. Also look at some of the accident reports and you will see more than one person is injured! [bold]The consequences of being injured on a job go well beyond just the individual who gets hurt[/bold]. The NO. ONE KILLER VOLTAGE in this country is 120 volts.
Not too long ago I saw 2 presentations on safety that will make any person think twice, one was by Bussmann, the other was presented by the Power Authority.
The work you do today could affect somebody tomorrow.
I am not picking on anyone, just adding my 2 cents!

Pierre
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/27/03 05:58 PM
Quote
Safety is a personal thing, in that How much you value having your life and other things like having limbs and fingers.
Trumpy,

I agree that good common sense and personal interest in safety is very important in keeping yourself and others around you safe. I think that's a given.

I can't really agree that safety is/or should be a personal thing though. There's too many people that don't have common sense, or the same self-values. There has to be some guidelines to keep these people safe and keep them from hurting others. Even the most well-intended will need some training or updated information at some point in their careers.

I know that nobody likes to be told what to wear, or how to do things, but I don't see any alternative to a structured safety program of some sort. What are your thoughts on this?

Bill
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/28/03 03:15 AM
Bill,
I certainly agree with your comments,
but, I think personally, the $64,000 question is, how do you structure a Safety programme in a way that is palatable, to everyone?.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/28/03 03:52 AM
Trumpy,

That is a good question. I don't think there is a way to satisfy everyone on any issue though.

I think the first step has to be acknowledgment from everyone that some sort of a structured program is necessary. That's a big nut to crack though.

Bill
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/30/03 05:19 AM
Bill,
Could you please give an example of a hypothetical "Structured Safety System"?.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/30/03 06:48 AM
Trumpy,

I was talking very generally. An example of what I would call stuctured is the Prove-Test-Prove procedure you were talking about in another thread, or Lock-Out-Tag-Out procedures. If everyone follows procedure in the same way there's less chance of anyone getting hurt.

Bill
Posted By: Bjarney Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 06/30/03 07:21 PM
There is another important aspect related to a ‘prove-test-prove’ sequence that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle of safety orientation. Deadly consequences are often assured if before the test, voltage levels of the equipment in question are not understood. It’s like the old “applied Simpson 260 leads to an energized 12kV bus…” disaster story.

I really believe that OSHA 29CFR1910.331-335 concepts should be a root portion of any electrical training—be the students an after-hours floor-waxing crew or transmission linemen.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/12/03 05:09 AM
Bill,
When you think about it,
with regard to Safety Training, there are 3
types of Attitudes toward this:
  • The first group will go to a Safety course and take in most of the Information and Skills, given to them.
  • The second group will, look at the course with an element of dubiousness, but will take in a bit of the training, only to forget these skills in a short period of time.
  • The third group, will view the Safety course as a complete and utter waste of thier time and will make no effort at all, to take part in what is being taught to them.

The question I would like to raise, is HOW do you encourage those in the 2nd and 3rd groups to adopt the same attitude towards Safety as the 1st group?
Short of threatening people(which would be the wrong approach, for a start!), how do you get people to change thier way of thinking?. [Linked Image]
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/12/03 11:33 AM
Trumpy

The #2 group could be trained, and retrained possibly with a guest speaker who has been injured and is now on the 'safety circuit'. The #3 group will take a bigger 'event' to train them - such as a BAD INJURY, OR DEATH!!!

Pierre
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/12/03 01:17 PM
Trumpy,

I don't know the answers. Hopefully some of our Safety Guys will share their experiences on getting people motivated.

Bill
Posted By: Scotts Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/13/03 05:48 PM
OK Bill, I am a safety guy.

I was the facility guy for 6 years then switched safety 4 years ago (loooong story). I have realized that it is my job to be a Pain in the ___. "Don't do that, Put these on...." So how to motivate the people in groups 2 and 3. Well first of all we have weekly tool box meetings. A little too much in my opinion, but that is what we have always done. I thought about going to every 2 week tool box meetings, but that would be too hard for everyone to remember if we have a tool box meeting this week or not. Fortunatley our management backs me in the safety area (Do a search for McWane Industries and you will see that not all management does).

One thing that I have always told people is that accidents hurt. Yes the company will get a gig on the incident rate and have some more work to do, but you are the one going home in pain, not me. No one should go home from work hurt.

A couple of things that I have done. We had 2 people get cut with a box cutter so I made up a 2 page pamphlet showing the right and the wrong was to use a box cutter. I put in pictures showing the wrong way, and the right way to use a box cutter. The last picture is the cut that one of the employees got. I will e-mail it to anyone if they want. Another thing that I did was to go over all of our past accidents. I pulled out the ones that definitely could have been prevented with better housekeeping and the more serious ones that we had. Then at one of the tool box meetings I went over it with the employees. For instance we have one maintenance guy who always tells me, no one have ever tripped over an extension cord. Well guess what, I found an accident in the past of someone tripping over an extension cord.

Like I said, I know it is my job to be a PITA, but I think the employees know that I have their best intention at heart. Like I tell them about hearing protection, sure you can put in your ear plugs not all the way so it looks like you are wearing hearing protection. However you are the one that in a couple of years going "Huh, what did you say?"

More to say, but I think this has gone on long enough.
Scott
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/15/03 09:56 AM
Scott,
Thanks for that!. [Linked Image]
You've got some darn good ideas there.
I realise that it's your job, to be on everyones case, that's how messages get through.
Quote
No one should go home from work hurt.
Your people at work should think themselves lucky, that they have a Safety Guy, heapsof places haven't and they are paying for it.
Posted By: webelect Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/15/03 01:08 PM
Thank you for this topic.
As a former employee of several small and large contractors, I can honestly say that the majority of the firms I worked for had priorities " Other than worker safety "
There is no accounting for personal common sense when it comes to safety.
Its good to see many of you guys take a proactive stance.
If you want to go home at the end of the day with all your body parts intact, be vigilant!
Something as basic as wearing Z87 eye protection while working may seem like a drag to some people until they have a drill bit come apart and shards fly everywhere.
Or " Dont bother with the insulated socket set " its just re-tourquing the main and I dont wanna clean the noalox of the handles " and the lug breaks shorting the extension on the can.
I've always been a stickler for safety and on a few occations been grateful for the efforts.
Thats my 2 cents
Billy B
Posted By: iwire Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/15/03 09:11 PM
Sorry I have not checked in on this thread for a while but I would like to respond to this.

By Sparky

Quote
can you LEGALLY refuse to do your job?

While I do not think it would be against the law to refuse to do your job, lets be honest if you refuse you may find yourself "downsized" at some point and IMO for a legitimate reason.

Now comes the part I will get hammered on.

If you are given all the PPE needed for the job and you refuse to do it anyway, are you in the right trade or with the right company to begin with.

If this plant needs an electrician that can work "Hot" why should they keep a guy on that will not work hot?

This to me would be the same as a truck driver that can not drive because he gets motion sick, or a firefighter that will not go into the smoke.

Certain jobs no matter how much PPE you have carry some risk, if you do not wish to take these risks there are plenty of electrician positions that do not require hot work.

I do not think a company should have to keep an employee on that can not or will not do the work they need done.

At some point I will have to leave the company I am with now, as age will make me slower and less agile, I do not think they are obligated to keep me on if I am not putting out the work, no hard feelings it is a cold hard world.

Just my opinion

Bob
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/19/03 04:15 AM
Bob,
I totally agree, with most of your comments, in your last posting and I don't reckon, that you should be "shot down in flames" for having these opinions!. [Linked Image]
The Electrical industry, no matter what country, we are talking about here, carries it's own inherent risks, electricity is like that.
But like you said, to have all of the PPE and still refuse to do the job, definitely sounds like a bad choice of vocation.
Hot-work in itself, takes years of supervised training, if you're not trained in it, leave it alone, this is a totally different animal, compared to dead work.
Just as an aside, with respect to wrong career choice, I once had an Apprentice Line Mechanic, who passed all the Theory tests and so forth, and he was real good with transformer calcs, but I got him to climb a pole one day, he got to the 3rd rung on the ladder and froze, it took me 3/4 of an hour to get him back down, 4ft off the ground. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Scotts Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/21/03 02:58 PM
Trumpy,

Thanks for the kind words.

Scott
Posted By: Trumpy Re: How do you feel about Safety? - 07/23/03 10:15 AM
Scotts,
That's OK.
I work in an arm of Electrical work, that requires, absolute attention to what you are doing, or you just set yourself on fire!. [Linked Image]
EWP work is totally different to working on say a lighting circuit in a house,
But, the same principles of safety still apply.
Here's a concept for you all:
Think, Feel, Think again, Act!!.??
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