I am a supervisor of a few Apprentices,
How can I be totally responsible for their safety conduct, while they are on a job, I go and have a good look at the job, tell them how the job is to be done, even give them a hand with the Pole Ladder, if it is required,
What do you guys reckon?.

Hi Trumpy,

I really like the Ten Hour OSHA Safety Class.

It covers a lot of the basics and electrical dangers also.

There is some good safety stuff that you can download at the site and have your own safety training as a minimum.

As far as being responsible FOR them..... you can't. Just like with kids, the best you can do is lead by example, give them the tools they need to be safe and remind them each time to "be careful".

You also need the support of your employer. If he is not supplying you with the tools you need to do your job, then he needs to "get on the stick" as he is THE one responsible.

Dave

[This message has been edited by WebSparky (edited 03-22-2003).]

" 1910.331 1910.332 1910.333 1910.334 1910.335 " are useful US/OSHA search terms if you want to explore this some more.

Trumpy,
I am the saftey guy here at work. I have wanted to respond to this since you first posted it, but could not come up with anything that was not long winded. The main thing that I tell people is that if you get injured on the job, you get HURT. Sure the company has to jump through some hoops and we get a ding on our OSHA log, but you are still the one in pain, not me.

Last year we did good 239 days without an accident. 3 accidents all year. Then this year we have had 4 already. In the past 2 weeks we had 2 OSHA recodable accidents and 2 incidents. What happened? I haven't the slightest idea. We have not hired anybody new and it is the same people we had last year.

So if you find the Holy Grail for safety I would appreciate if I could borrow it for a few days.

Scott

Guys,
Thanks for the postings,guys, but we have one slight problem, if I was working under US law, it would not be a problem, but I live in New Zealand, sorry for not telling you guys that when I first posted the topic.
But, I have had some really good advice, though.
Here's a question and a half, are all apprentices the same, the land over?.
I've trained some shockers, how about you?.
BTW Scotts, that is an impressive accident record, I wonder how many Electrical companies could boast figures like that?.
Also, what do your duties as a Safety Officer, at your workplace entail?
Ah,yes the Holy Grail of Safety, we haven't found it yet either, but one thing I do know
(for all of you smokers out there),sit down roll up a smoke and size up the situation first, provided you are not working in a Hazardous Area, this will pay big dividends, in the long run.
[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-29-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-29-2003).]

Trumpy,

Sorry I have not replied sooner, let's just say that computers can sometime be frustrating.

I am the safety guy for an industrial plant. We electropolish stainless steel tube and make the fittings also. We use some nasty stuff and also have different types of equipment as well. FYI I have been doing this for 3 years, the previous 10 years I was the facility manager. Long story about the switch in careers.

My job entails, among other things, that we follow all OSHA regulations. We also have many work place policies that need to be written and implemented. I also do periodic walk throughs to check on things. I was real popular when I checked to see if everyone was wearing the required steel toed shoes. I have recently started to take digital pictures of things that I see wrong in the shop and share those pictures with the employees.

If I may be so bold as to make a recommendation. Learn all that you can and share your knowledge. It does no good if I know something and the employees don't. Try and give the guys all the correct equipment to work safely. Also show that you care, listen to their concerns and reply to their questions. (Off soap box)

Even though you are in New Zealand you can still use the OSHA rules. I am one who believes that the regulations are there for a reason. I hope they have learned from others mistakes. Some people agree and some people disagree with OSHA. A question, does New Zealand have some form of OSHA?

I am willing to help you all I can. Feel free to e-mail me or post here.

Oh yeah, you are right. Step back look at the situation and then do you work. Plan your work and work your plan.

Scott

Most accidents i've been party to in construction are due to individuals in a rush.
The notion that one needs to light a fire under a job, rile all the workers to warp 9, and maintain respect for safety protocalls is ludicrous.
Should one screw up, safety protocalls are utilized as a hedge against corporate liability, and may be used to flog the injured worker who will then be shunned as inept and sent to training should S/He survive to recant profusley.

After all, corporate hired lawyers can eat anything you've got for lunch, so get to work and have a nice day

That is what i've told subordinates in the past, really quite effective....



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 05-03-2003).]

Could anyone please give me a link to the OSHA website?.

here ya go Trumpy

Sparky,
Thanks mate!.

we spend a disproportunate amount of time on worker safety,no matter how much you tell some people,it just doesnt sink in!!

Hello everyone! OSHA Professor is back from extended training assignments.
Permit me please to comment. I empathize with your frustrations, and those frustrations are not so uncommon as one would think.
Safety in the workplace / jobsite involves more than just preaching rules and regulations. It’s more of a safety management system combined with culture change.
I once gave a talk to electrical contractors in New York City (where I once lived and worked) and they all said “we gave our people GFCI’s to use on the job and they just lost them. What can we do”? Well what would you do if they showed up on the site without their hard hats, or safety shoes etc? Would you just say what can we do? I don’t think so! Isn’t it a condition of employment ljust like the hard hat. You would tell an employee without the hard hat to go home and get the hard hat before entering the job site.
You manage personnel! You manage capital resources! You manage work schedules, materials acquisition for jobs, etc,etc. So why can’t safety be managed? Answer, it can!
Various models including an OSHA model for managing safety & health also called safety and health programs is posted at http://osha.gov/SLTC/safetyhealth_ecat/index.html
and http://osha.gov/SLTC/safetyhealth/index.html
i) Management leadership and employee participation;
(ii) Hazard identification and assessment;
(iii) Hazard prevention and control;
(iv) Information and training; and
(v) Evaluation of program effectiveness.
The links above can assist with culture change and implementation of the overall program / system.
Lets face it if an employee was continually messing up on the execution of the installation specification requirements per code and job order requirements what would you do? Do you have work rules? Do you communicate those work rules and their import to employees? Do you follow up to insure they are in fact following those rules? Do you have a progressive discipline plan to deal with recalcitrant workers? Some would say that sound a little hard line but compared to say someone showing up late and leaving early for work or continuously damaging / wasting / kinking conduit while bending, what would an employer do in those cases. Combine this “mater of fact that’s the way it is “with genuine concern for the workers safety and “walk the talk” culture change can be achieved.
OK enough rambling for now. Thank you for the forum folks. Good luck and be safe.
OSHA Professor

sparx,
Welcome to ECN, mate!.
Good to see another of you Australian guys joining in on our Forums.
Regarding your reply, I couldn't agree more,
with some people it takes a near-miss or the real thing to teach them a lesson.

What a great question and I would have to agree with Scott on his reponse. One thing I would like to add though is safety is as much about attitudes as it is about behaviors. Without having the proper attitude about safety, you certainly will not behave appropriately. As Dr. Scott Geller says...Safety must become a value; our priorities change from daya to day, but our values stay the same. All of us out there trying to make safety the #1 priority by putting it first on meeting agendas and haging banners is a great start, but if we do not get the employees on board with THEIR safety process and allow them the freedom to make the right choices, we will neevr achive that utopia of an "injury free" workplace.

As trumpy pointed out in his orginal post, he can't be there all the time and he can show them how to work safely and even demonstrate it, but it's what happens when he leaves that counts!

Bryan www.SAFTENG.net

Bryan,
I agree, you can only teach your employees(or work-mates) so much, but also you shouldn't have to stand there and hold thier hand, in case something does go wrong.
Also, I feel in a lot of industry workplaces, there is an "US and Them" mentality, where the management couldn't really give two hoots about the staff safety, until there is an accident causing serious injury or death.
And then questions like How? and Why? are asked by these very same people.

Bryan,
Thanks for mentioning me. I have to say that I really like your website. I have used it for a safety presentation at my company.

Trumpy,
One way to "sell" safety is to look at the total cost of an accident. There have been a lot of studies that show that accidents cost much more than the actual cost. Some say anywhere from 10 to 50 times in indirect costs. So a $100 accident would cost at least $1,000 to the company. I forget the math at the moment (I am at home so I do not have all my papers), but it usually means that the company has to have an extra $30,000 in sales to cover this small accident. I can get you more info when I get back into work.
Scott

So...fear of retribution is the premis of OSHA ?

simply fodder for more 'Us & Them' IMO.....

Hey sparky,
I thought that sort of thing only happened in NZ(the old fear of the stick thingee)
You guys have a more thorough and likeable Safety system over in the US, you agree?.

Sad to say it's not Trumpy.

A good parrallel is our 'War on Drugs' in America. In 20 years it has amounted to a miserable failure, even some of the people who started the program admit to this now.

It is simply a means of employment, as well as a means of supplementing these orginizations through forfieture.

We have some 70,000 inmates , for noviolent crimes of mere possesion incarcerated in an overflowing penal system here.......

The Iron Fist approach is the same with OSHA, they've had 30 years here and created nothing more than an US-THEM environ.

They have lowered themselves to become the hitman for bigger biz here, lobbied to slap down small biz.

Our our Congress televised it's shredding of this a while ago, consider.... a public flogging of one branch of goverment administered to another is not the norm ....

Hearts and Minds are what need to change, and this cannot be legislated here or anywhere else.

I have nothing against safety, contrary to what some may interpet my past posts here.

I just feel that our 'Safety Biz' in this country's approach is akin to shooting one's self in the foot

One of the 'underreported stories of 2002' here is OSHA's declining efficy.....

Sparky,

What are your suggestions?

heh~
Good one Bill, exactly what is posed to those in critiques when participants bemoan a problem...

solution?

First off~
We have a minset that is fundamentally flawed if safety continues as an Us-Them premis.
The cookie jar mentality of violation/fine via the upside down managerial triangle educates us to what?
A good example would be the many safety protocals held as overkill, or un necessary.

Secondly~
Corporism holds the concept of safety in the same light as liability . It merely equates to cost effectiveness, nothing more for most.

Third~
Unfunded mandates aren't worth the paper they're written on, laws, codes, and whatever else that may in fact be a good idea unenforced speak for themselves.

The end user(s) become a cyclical victim of isolation, and the object of litigation.

Safety, IMHO, should come from the bottom up as well as the top down.

A position of responsibility, as we are to be safety applied, should also come with some authority

Joe worker, with his heart in it, and mind on it,not some drone to protocal, would make more of a dent in the overall concept via sheer numbers.



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 05-12-2003).]

Sparky,

I am not debating or commenting on anything you said, but it just seems that complaints are incomplete, or non-constructive without a suggestion of how to improve things.

Don't bite me, ok?


Bill

Bill,
there was no offense taken or projected.

The critiques i mention are formal meets that take place after volatile incidents

asking for solutions is a proven technique, especially for those of tenacity

Answer to OSHA's problem of not making enough head way in safety...

A fellow safety professional was rambling on one day after a long hard day during a shutdown. He made a statement that will stay with me for ever; "Kill a fish and you go to jail, kill a worker and you pay a couple of thousand dollar fine and you are back in business before the end of the day".

When OSHA has the teeth that EPA now has and as Sparky points out - employers actually give a darn about their employees, then we can just begin to scratch the surface of this solution. Until then, we will see cold and calous companies run by greedy billionaires, who have the biggest parachute for when they are run out of town, only after killing some employees and laying the others off!

No I am not bitter, just down right disgusted as to what I have seen happen to companies in my VERY short career!

Bryan

One of the biggest safety problems is the unfunded mandates put out by the many idiots with degrees in our goverment agencies. And thier corporation wannabes. All of these individual have one thing in common- they do not pay for the costs for thier rules. It does not matter if the rule is a good or bad one. As a small business owner I cannot afford every piece of safety gear on the market 98% of which will not be useful for 92% of the work we do. Yet I have been told that I must have climbing harness for all employees who could be over 4' of the ground wether there is a place to tie off or not. I have been told that I must have "hot work" clothing and protective equipment for all employees on a job site- even when no powre has been run to the job site.
The two examples I gave are part of the reason that those who can afford corporate lawyers and safety directors have all sorts of paper work written up and promptly use it to fire an employee who gets hurt " for violation of compant policy".
We will not get individuals to respect safety rules untill believable education and a very LARGE dose of common sense become the accepted norm.
We have a lot of very good and caring people who have made safety thier life's work. But we also have those who cannot do the work who moved over to the safety office. Until all of the safety enforcers/educators are percieved as not profiting or not bieng a little tin god they will not make any real difference.
I personally have worked in many different type of buildings. I have done residential, commercial and industrial jobs. I have been on jobs that took from a few minutes to 3 years to complete, from jobs that 1 man can do to a job with 500 electricians and over 2000 of other trades. All have those who are careful and careless, those who have good ad bad days, none want to be hurt eventhou some just do not care.
Almost all do not want to be bothered by some - pehaps well meaning- non worker interupting thier job with a sermon that may but usually does not apply to them AT THAT TIME. To often this applies to required classes that the individual does not want or in far too many cases need.
Also those big companies too often have some of the best scapegoat hunters as middle managers. I overheard a "safety manager" tell a guy who had been hit by a piece of blown trash during a sudden thunder storm. " You should not have been hurt. You went to the 10 hour OSHA course."
Untill attitudes like that and regulate,regulate,more regulation, more forms, more safety equipment needed or not more B/S changes AND is generally percieved to HAVE changed little if any futher progress will occur.
By the way those companies who told me the above safety junk got what they diserved. The only company who does thier electrical work doubled his charges to them. I know of several contractors including me who will not bid to them. We won't even look at thier plans.

What i have alwyas seen as a fundamental flaw in OSHA regs, is the inability of the employee to make the call.

NESPARKY,

Such bitterness! Some of what you said is oh so painfully true; BUT ONLY some! I am not sure who you have been getting your info from, but it sounds like you have been impacted by the contractor safety programs of big corporations. Now I am in no way siding with the big boys in this case, but to even the playing field let shine some light on the other side of the fence.

One day their was this snot nosed college graduate with a BS and MS in safety enigneering who stopped some work that he felt was unsafe. He of course got the sermon that the workers, "certified in the trade" has been doing their jobs safely "long before he was a thought in his daddy's pants" and that he should use some "common sense" and let them do their jobs. He walked away, only to have two workers fall 8 feet, that's right just 8 feet! One is now a "veggie" and I might add a very wealthy veggy!!!!! Of course he does not know this as he is still unable to speak or control his bodily functions. After the host company was cited by OSHA thousand dollars for not enforcing those silly OSHA standards, the civil lawyers took over the serious sums of money began to be tossed around, say around $55,000,000.00. So you can imagine what the response from the company was...a contractor safety program. It all goes back to those five workers not wearing their fall protection as required by OSHA, as required by their own company policy, as required by the host employers policy and requested by that snot nose, college educated safety professional who had asked them to compply just days before.

So if you ask me, what's common sense to you, will most likely be greek to me and what's common to me, will most likely be greek to you; so the ONLY answer is for both sides of the fence to work together and learn from each others. No one has all the answer and no one can do it all, but TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFEFENCE!

Bryan Haywood www.SAFTENG.net

Brian
I have no arguement with a well run and realistic safety program. My experience especally with some large companies "incompentents moved to safety dept to keep them employed" is very frustrating. I hoped that all of those idiots get sued preferably every day.
My point is that untill those type of individuals are removed from safety or supervisory positions, no effective change will occur.
We all can find incidents of people making mistakes that cause injuries,death and damage. Our goal should be to cut this down. We will never stop all of it- people do make mistakes, equipment does fail. To be effective a safety program MUST be realistic. The more B/S thrown in the less the worker will respect it or the ones profiting from safety positions.
Yes I have had too many experiences with these idiots. Some of whom were placed in thier positions to drive off any one who did not bow down to the management. Especally if you asked to be paid for work completed.
One time the big boy's accounts payable was 45 days late. When I asked where's my money and got the usual run around from management and sudden high intrest from the corporate safety people. We could not even walk into the work area without harassment from safety/security. Until I had to ask for my money, we never saw or heard from those clowns. Yes abuses like that and others refered to in my previous post are the reason I sound bitter. I am. But I am also disgusted with a system that permits this and encourages those types of abuses because of the volume of the paperwork. Wether that paperwork has any meaning of not does not seem to matter.
I hope that we can change this system and make it more effective. I never want to have to knock on a wifes door and tell her that her husband is dead again.

Bryan,
Please enlighten us to where in the OSHA regs an employee may decline a job on grounds that s/he feels it unsafe.
~Steve

Here is a link to OSHA 1977-11 and -12 which explains the rights of employees.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...art_number=1977&p_text_version=FALSE

Dave

yes Websparky,
the employer/employee relationship as OSHA sees it is spelled out.

I've played with enough live wires to know that as an employee given the right PPE, i cannot refuse the job

Thus i take it...
to pertain to cooperation bettween the fortune 500's and OSHA?


NOT to insinuate that the employee could actually have a working relationship with any safety related issue.

Lord knows we have enough goverment agencies handing down what they think is good for us right?

Methinks it should ammend to;
WE'LL KICK YOUR CAN IF YOUR DIFFERENT !

kabeesh?

To be quite 'point blank' (as it appears i simply need to be so) say you have been given your PPE, training, arc blast specs etc...... you've been told to essentially stand on your head due to the close proximity of the buss you must tap 1/4-20.....the PPE produces a notable loss of tactility, peripheral vision, hearing......

What a great discussion! I've been watching for a while now and let me add a couple of lines with respect to attitudes, behavior and enforcement. Every individual on the face of this planet is different. As a construction safety manager, I was fortunate enough to learn this early on. Some will simply not take constructive criticism, some must be beaten over the head with a 4X4, some must be told, shown and demonstrated, some just told. the list goes on and on. The point being we are all different and learn in different ways. The hard part is getting to know what makes each of our employees click and drives the safety geek (and supervisors/foremen)nuts. It doesn't happen in a day, week, month or sometimes (depending on the size of the company) a year. We have over 300 field employees and it has taken over 3 years to get to the point that (as a company) we are seeing changes in safety attitudes and behavior. But it has to be done with honest and sincere regard for each individual employee. One thing we all have in common as people is the need to have someone that cares. May sound dumb and mushy but we all need a friend now and then. My personal experience has been that if you beat safety over the heads of your employees, sooner or later they will begin to resent it. I'm not a huge fan of the behavioral safety movement, but parts of it work very well. I think every company needs to evaluate what parts work with their organization structure.
With regard to regulatory enforcement....the same holds true. Yes I have often run across the tin god syndrom from enforecement inspectors but have also found many of them fair and balanced. Here in the States OSHA has a mountain of paper that is written in Greek to many and requires formal interpretations on many different subjects. Much of the regulatory text is burdensom and serves littel if any effect on actual safe work practices. Govt is a beurocratic mess and the ones that write the laws often times do not calculate the true costs of thier actions. A well meaning law often times becomes impossible to enforce. However not all regulator action is bad. OSHA provides a benchmark for us to meet. There will always be the bad actors out there that are out for the almighty dollar and give no regard to completing the job safely. Those are the ones who need the heavy hand of enforcement. Not the ones who forgot to post thier injury log on February 1st. Regulators need to spend thier time and resources on the employers that give no regard to safey, not those who are putting forth a good effort. Get to know your enforcement inspectors and what makes them click. Chances are, the last 10 sites they inspected were met with opposition, criticism, and disgust from those they came in contact with. I'm not saying you don't have to watch every step to defend your self, but hey, inspectors are people too (most of the time). Our local construction association holds regular informal luncheons that the local OSHA inspectors are invited to and are asked to speak at. This gives everyone a chance to get to know what makes them "click"

Just one safety geeks opinion

Thanks for the forum!

Lance,

Thanks for your comments.
I hope that all sides of the Safety "Issue" can find some common ground here.

(couldn't resist the pun)

Bill

Did you see the TV report about Tyler Pipe/McWane Corp last week? Safety is some places seems to predate the stone age. The pictures of dead, mangled workers were sobering.