ECN Forum
Posted By: sparky Burning Wirenut - 01/24/12 01:37 AM
http://c-joule-effect-inc.com/electrical_fires.html

~S~
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/12 03:25 AM
This 'factoid' example of internet 'science' illustrates many things - none of which are discussed in the text.

The first is that this video dovetails nicely with a recent article in IAEI News discussing the imagined OPCI, or "Out of Parameter Circuit Interrupter. Beam me up, Scotty. I just can't wait for the next wave of hysteria-driven code mandates.

"The cause of most electrical fires." Really? Whay happened to overloaded extension cords or the mythical errant Romex staple? What of the penny fuse, aluminum wiring, or FPE breakers? Nope - it's been our wire nuts all along.

Bursting into flame at 55C? UL standards already require such plastics to be self-extinguishing, and I've yet to see a wire nut rated at less than 105C. That, btw., is higher than the rating of the wire insulation.

A fire needs air - and a closed box in a wall stuffed with insulation isn't likely to let much air in. You know those wastebaskets at the mall? Those are designed to restrict air entry- which is why you have probably seen one smoking, but not with flames shooting out. Same principle would work here.

I've opened up plenty of boxes, and found all manner of poor connections, but finding a heat-damaged wire nut has been quite a rare event.

"Joule effect?" What is a joule? Nothing but a unit of energy measurement. Get anything hot enough and bad things will happen.

GFCI didn't work? No surprise there .... they were never seen as a fire protection device. Breaker didn't trip? Well, breaker size aside, you can do some serious welding with the power used by the common hair dryer.
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/12 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by renosteinke
GFCI didn't work? No surprise there .... they were never seen as a fire protection device. Breaker didn't trip? Well, breaker size aside, you can do some serious welding with the power used by the common hair dryer.


Please note this series event was not mitigated by either gfci or afci

~S~
Posted By: KJay Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/12 02:18 PM
I think maybe the first thing to do would be to stop using those crappy Buchanan wirenuts. I always replace those whenever I find them in a box because of that very situation. IMO, those things are on a par with T&B Marrettes and those generic no-name Chinese wirenuts as far as poor quality connections go.
I'm only guessing that the Joule connector is just a thermal device, but since it tripped the circuit breaker and wouldn't let it reset, it must also create a internal line to ground fault when it activates.

Posted By: Tesla Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/12 07:05 PM
Joule effect is a term of art used in thermodynamics...

And refers to a refrigeration effect caused by the expansion of high pressure gases down to room pressure -- or below.

It's sometimes used to create liquid air/ nitrogen/ oxygen.

It's not an electrical term of art at all.

Cheers.
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 12:07 AM
As the site imforms us, this is a simple test

we have a series connection that creates heat, and ultimately fire

~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 12:52 AM
Came accross a few of these over the years...
bad connection, sloppy workmanship, 'hurry up', etc.

Can't say it was any one brand of 'nut'. Remember yellow Ideal, & the mid size 3M.

I guess I missed the Chinese version.
Posted By: KJay Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by HotLine1

I guess I missed the Chineese version.


They are those no-name wirenuts that come in the parts bag with all the Chinese made fixtures, usually along with the supposedly 8/32 machine screws that don’t even really seem to fit the manufactures own fixture straps all that well.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 03:37 AM
Thank you sir...guess that's why I missed them!
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 12:33 PM
Gentlemen.
the point of the vid is bad connections cause hot spots, arcs or no arcs, and this 'point of connection' heat becomes the culprit of electrical fires

~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 08:40 PM
~s~:
OK, I found a few minutes to look at the videos, although not enough minutes to digest the whole details.

Yes, bad connections cause what you say. Now, the quest is how much is this item, and what is the availability?

I sent an RFI to them, the vids would be interesting to show my students, and would be a good CEU topic, as would be a sample of the device.

To you I say 'Thanks for the info' & stay safe & healthy!!
Posted By: FLV Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/25/12 09:28 PM
Hello, renosteinke

Please, Joule Effetc:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joule+effect
or Joule heating ( it's the same ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating

http://c-joule-effect-inc.com/cjouleeffectincglowing_connections-electrical_-1.html

Best regards
Flv-
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 12:15 AM
FLV:

Hello & WELCOME to ECN forums from one of the 'Jersey Guys'

Jump right in here anytime, Please!!

Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 03:04 AM
Weloome FLV

i think you'll find some of the trades best minds here

~S~
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 05:26 PM
..... The heating caused by the flow of electricity ....

Gee, I wondered how my toaster worked!

What we have is some guy deliberately mucking things up, taking pretty pictures, mixing scare tactics into his speach ... then saying 'buy my product.'

It seems like only yesterday the 'vast majority' of fires, we were told, were due to arcing connections- so we needed to start using a newly invented gizmo to solve the problem.

I'm not buying it. Plus, after the whole AFCI bait & switch, I'm not about to let a slaes campaign suddenly sneak itself into the code .... even if it's 'for the children.' Call me jaded.

Do bad things happen? Of course they do. We already have 'rules' that address workmanship, and 'standards' that address reasonable design criteria. Deliberately making something fail does not prove that the 'something' was faulty.

If a rule is being violated, we fix that violation by enforcing the rule- not by adding another rule or gadget to the mix.
Posted By: FLV Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 07:23 PM
Hello Hotline1
Thank you for your post.
Regards,
FLV-
Posted By: FLV Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 07:51 PM
I totally agree with you. In my opinion, ground fault fonction and overcurrent fonction work well, since a long time. The both = GFCI. It detects contacts between phase and ground and possibly between neutral and ground and phase-neutral.(in wiring, J-box or appliances). What more with an AFCI ? I dont know. And in this video, no arc. I imagine that rule was intentionally violated to generate a glowing connection, because GC apper often after month or years. I think video highlights that "glowing connections" are undetectable, even if the rules are NOT VIOLATED.
Regards,
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 08:26 PM
I don't claim to be an engineer, or scientist, or profess to have a firm grip on the 'insides' of an AFCI. When there is a 'bad connection' that generates heat, which further deteriorates said 'bad' connection, is there not an 'arc' (series arc)?? Is it less than the threshold of the AFCI cbs?

As I said above, I have seen 'burned' wirenuts over the years, and did attribute that to workmanship, be it a 'bad' splice..or a combo of a bad splice and a circuit loaded to the max.

BTW, this new item is still being developed, and is not on the market yet. Think about the elusive AFCI device!!
Posted By: FLV Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/12 10:54 PM
Hello again HotLine1

"When there is a 'bad connection' that generates heat, which further deteriorates said 'bad' connection, is there not an 'arc' (series arc)??" Not necessarily, and often not.
Arcs often reach at the end of heating (often much later). Also I tested AFCIs, and never trip with series arc! Someone tried this test?
Thank you.
Regards,
FLV -
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/12 02:48 AM
FLV:

Lets continue this discussion please,

The 'new' AFCI cbs are supposed to detect both series and parallel arcs? I have a few videos from Siemens that show both series and parallel arcs. The last NEC change mandated the 'combo' AFCI.
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/12 01:14 PM
HotOne,
some of what you ask is detailed in the substaintiations forwarded to CMP2

~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/12 02:29 PM
~S~:
OK, Thanks, I'll do some reading there ASAP!
Posted By: FLV Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/12 08:12 PM
Ok, Apart from my tests, I also saw a site with an NEC proposal, I think it was combinaisonAFCI.com, (try) where the author seems to be qualified.
Have a good day.
Regards,
FLV
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/28/12 12:48 AM
HotOne,

first off incendiary levels can be reached without an arc

secondly, the series 'bad connection' has always, and will most likely always be the most prevelant culprit

i mention this because we (American electrical community) have nothing to address this

~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/28/12 03:16 AM
~s~:
Yes, you can be incendiary ie: Renos toaster and Tom Edisons light bulbs, but those are designed to do that.

Unless we all get zapped into the fourth dimension, and enter the 'perfect world/utopia' the bad connections will be around.

Yes, there is no device available that we could use to prevent this issue, and I'm now questioning IF the combo AFCI will do what is claimed. I wonder if anyone here has attempted to do a series arc test on an AFCI CB? (Greg)
(Reno)
Posted By: FLV Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/28/12 01:28 PM
Hello HotLine1 and sorry, it's was no clear: "Ok, Apart from my tests, I also saw a site with an NEC proposal, I think it was combinaisonAFCI.com, (try ON GOOGLE) where the author seems to be qualified. "
I apologies.
Regards,
FLV
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/29/12 04:52 AM
Alas, I have never been in a position to do any truly proper testing.

Mike Holt had a gizmo that mounted electrodes on a rail, and he could slowly separate them to make a controlled arc. I have not seen him use this since he visited AFCI central and 'drank the kool-ade.' IMO, his device would provide a very good demonstration of any type of AFCi.

Loose connections? I think we're on a unicorn hunt here.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/29/12 09:21 AM
Several years back, I posted an Image of an Ideal Red Wirenut, which had extensive Heat-Related damage.
The Wirenut was found in a 4s Box, during the Demo Phase of a Tenant Improvement (T.I.) Project.
Several others were found as well; a few were so Heat Damaged, that they disintegrated upon touch.

The culprit: Poor Workmanship!!!

It was obvious that the Terminations were done by more than One Person... most likely there were Three People doing the Makeup on these Ceiling Boxes.
The Boxes with "Poor Workmanship" comprised of less than 20%, had no Writing on the Covers (to indicate Panel / Circuits + Voltage), were only the Lighting Circuits (277V), and were the only Terminations where no Pre-Twisting was performed.

The Pre-Twisting inclusion is simply an observation of bulk Terminations, not an indication of Termination Failure where not performed, as I have seen many undamaged non Pre-Twisted Terminations.

Points to ponder:

1: The Service Capacity which these Lighting Circuits were fed from, was 4,000 Amps - 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire; so the Service Disconnect (Main Circuit Breaker in this case) included GFPE (Ground Fault Protection for Equipment).

2: The settings were dialed in for most restrictive / highest sensitivity.

3: Although the GFPE does not directly scan for Series Arcs, there was evidence in some of the effected 4s Boxes, showing L-G Arcing.

To me, the Termination issues discovered on this Project are very rare scenarios. I had been in the field for at least 24 Years when discovering the Bad Terminations. Prior to this I had uncovered only a few (no more than 5) such situations - only there was a single Termination issue (only One Wirenut in One Box total), and the Wirenut was either an obviously over-used Ideal, Scotchlock, or something in the "El-Cheapo" line...

My Conclusions:

a: Termination Failure is directly related to the experience of the Person performing the task,

b: The Workmanship placed on any installation, may vary with a Person - per the situation involved (i.e.: bad day = poor makeup),

c: The Wirenuts in this case were damaged from excessive Heat, caused by drawing 100% LCL Current through the internal spring mechanism of the Wirenut,

d: Little, if any, Series Arcing was experienced in the Wirenut,

e: The only way any Protective Device would react to these scenarios, is when a Bolted Ground Fault occurred (Wirenut Spring made contact with the Metallic Enclosure of an Outlet / Junction Box),

f: This is not a Brand-Specific issue. All brands and types of Solderless Terminations have the potential to fail this way, due to Poor Workmanship.

Just my 2¢ smile

-- Scott
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/29/12 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Scott35

3: Although the GFPE does not directly scan for Series Arcs, there was evidence in some of the effected 4s Boxes, showing L-G Arcing.

To me, the Termination issues discovered on this Project are very rare scenarios. I had been in the field for at least 24 Years when discovering the Bad Terminations. Prior to this I had uncovered only a few (no more than 5) such situations - only there was a single Termination issue (only One Wirenut in One Box total), and the Wirenut was either an obviously over-used Ideal, Scotchlock, or something in the "El-Cheapo" line...

My Conclusions:


c: The Wirenuts in this case were damaged from excessive Heat, caused by drawing 100% LCL Current through the internal spring mechanism of the Wirenut,

d: Little, if any, Series Arcing was experienced in the Wirenut,


-- Scott



Scott, please allow me a rebuttal here.

a bad connection is the most common malady of the electrical trade,

said bad connections are usually seen as overheated terminations

this can be described as a series event, or a 'glowing contact'

give me free rein in any house wired a generation ago, and i'll wager i'll find you multiple examples

further, a glowing contact can produce incendary levels before an arc occurs

UL has finally come around recently to recognize said glowing contact as a major fire safety consideration

please look at the latest IEEE paper via a Mr Joe Engle, phd, for this>>>

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

thank you


~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/31/12 01:26 AM
To the comments made by Scott, I would like to add one thing. He mentions lighting circuits, 277 volt, etc.

Could the circuit(s) been operating at or near max amperage?

Yes, I agree with the 'workmanship' statement, as I said back in this thread. No I would not expect a GFPE main to see this potential issue until it was a L-G fault, which may be after the situation evolves into a fire condition.

And, to Sparkys comments, yes, I have found some old, porcelain wire nut, twisted, & friction taped cloth wrapped RH that had issues, most of which reared their heads when oversized plug fuses were installed. Some burned clear, a few resulted in structure damage. (From my young days in Newark, NJ areas)

'Newer' work bad connections of wire nuts (Yellow & Red) with scorch marks I have also come accross, not 'lots', but more than a handful for sure.

No debate that these situations can be a cause of a fire, Hence, splice boxes require covers.

Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/31/12 02:36 AM
iirc, the higher voltages are more likely to assume jacobs ladder

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/jacobs.htm

the article mentions >

A person
named F. Pashchen in 1889 published a law which sets out
what has become known as Paschen's Law. He determined
the relationship between breakdown voltage, the gap
between two metal plates, and the pressure. With air as the
gas, the minimum voltage is 327V, as shown in Fig. 5. The
peak of a 120VAC sine wave is only 170V, and thus
continuous low current arcing is, by a law of physics, not
possible with copper-copper. Thus claims that a
Combination AFCI will respond to arcing at a break in a
conductor or a loose connection flies in the face of a law of
physics.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen's_law

Anything i could add would be assumption, since this is EE turf

so Scott, please be kind & translate to english k?



and workmanship?

well i'd love that perfect world where licensure, inspections, maintanence issues, and all entities involved could be on the same page

beam me up!



~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Burning Wirenut - 01/31/12 03:02 AM
More reading to peak my interests.

Great subject, this topic.
Posted By: BigB Re: Burning Wirenut - 11/07/13 03:57 AM
Dragging this post back to the top because of something that happened recently. Never before have I seen it. I was installing a chandelier on a house that was completed earlier, and the chandelier box was capped off for future use. Whoever trimmed the house stuck a 3 way in the switch box because it had a 14/3 and they thought it was a 3 way but actually it was ran to the chandelier box possibly for a future fan. Anyway not knowing it was a 3-way (Decora), I flip the switch down and climb up to open the box. As I reach into the pancake to fetch the wires I hear a faint crackling, then next thing I know it sounds like a Lincoln Buzz Box and suddenly the red wirenut bursts into flames. I'm trying to grab it with my linesmans and I'm blowing on it but it will not stop burning. Finally I manage to rip it off the conductors and fling it to the floor, where it makes a good burn mark. Whoever trimmed had capped the unstripped red conductor in with the grounding conductor, and the wirenut must have just cut in enough to make for a nice load without enough to trip the breaker (no arc fault). If I had not seen this with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it. That wirenut would not estinguish for anything. I think of this now everytime I see a flying splice in the attic.
Posted By: sparky Re: Burning Wirenut - 11/07/13 04:32 AM
Elevate that sentiment to a number of aging connections BigB

That most have to 'glow' before they 'arc', and that a glowing connection can achieve incendiary temps has been an established fact for some time

~S~
Posted By: sparky Re: Burning Wirenut - 11/07/13 02:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2HyTRxzwXs


~S~
Posted By: andey Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/22/14 11:19 AM
So when will you all finally go for these wink
http://elektricks.com/Abzweigdose_verdrahten_0020.jpg
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/22/14 05:10 PM
Good day Andey!

Is the pic from the mfg?

That looks like an extreemly neat j-box. Do you have any info on the listings of these? And cost?

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/23/14 01:09 AM
Those are nothing more, or less, than Wago connectors. The real thing - not the Ideal clone. Yes, they're listed; box is marked. There's even a version with little levers that let you remove individual wires at will.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/23/14 04:50 PM
The main utility for AFCI logic is to trip out when a worn commutator kicks up a fuss.

%%%

The hot spots of normal travail occur as localized heating -- like a spot welder.

BigB had me chuckling when he wrote of trying to blow an active plasma arc/ pinched conductor out with his breath.

I was also surprised that he assumed this or that wiring to be in place.

In EVERY residential structure, I always assume tha I can't assume anything. Homeowners/ home owers never step-up and admit that they've fiddled with the wiring... and will never give you an informed tale about what the Other Guy did the last time he had to crawl away from these circuits.

Lastly, three-ways control all of the chandeliers around my house. They're as common as dust for a fixture that typically is used to flood an entire zone. I simply expect to find three-ways.

What's weird is that that particular homeowner should've thrown the three-way long before he got there.

Then, hearing and smelling wrongful things, that very homeowner should've turned off the naughty switch and called a professional over to clean up their own handiwork.

%%%

Just take it to heart: you're being called in because the DIY gambit has gone astray. The damage has merely been throttled down -- awaiting your arrival.

Cheers.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/23/14 11:38 PM
That "Surfen Tuben" (German version of ENT?) looks like interesting stuff too.
Does it thread into the box?

Way cool.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/14 01:03 AM
Greg, that tubing is almost identical to "Smurf tube." It connects to ... nothing! You simply poke it through the hole. No clamp or fitting at all.
I would often find boxes with the tubing protruding excessively into the box, or stopping just short of the box.

The tubing is installed into routed chases in the masonry, and secured by the mortar used to patch the chase. No clips or staples or clamps.

The boxes themselves have extremely weak mounting to the wall. You can often see them move about when you have them open.

Devices typically have ears that expand out, you hope to catch on serrations inside the box. The arrangement is similar to that used on some of our old-work boxes, but not nearly as secure.

As a result, simply 'pulling the plug' frequently results in the box partly pulling out of the wall. "Child art" instructs all that the "proper" way to pull a plug is to first place one hand against the cover-plate, holding the box in place; then you pull the plug with the other hand.
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/14 01:43 AM
Hot spots occur from only ONE phenomenon

HEAT

Ul determined this almost 40 yrs ago

There exists NO technology to mitigate this distally

~S~
Posted By: Tesla Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/14 04:38 AM
HEAT makes things hot?

I believe you.

The larger question is making assumptions when you are called out to a residence.

My working assumption is that I can't assume anything.

1) Bad original work.

2) Even worse DIY

3) Dufuss hack called out -- before a real electrician... oh, so typical...

4) At absolute wit's end... a REAL electrician is called into action. His talent/skill knowledge base can't be acknowledged -- as that would put him up there with the professionals....

The Big Box Store and the Internet said ANYONE can wire stuff correctly!

Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/24/14 01:51 PM
Rather descriptive of my 30 yr career Tesla.

Yet while the markets 'hidden hand' rejoices in the glory of diy'er , the bureaucracies brew more and more doctrine they'll never be confronted with , or need care about

Fact is, all those 'alphabet dept oversight' sorts so well known to us rarely make public appearances addressing the proliferation of diyers fueling their safety goals

From a purely objective stance, this can be seen as engineered to come down on and alienate that 'real electrician'

That most of us are left to explain the ever expanding NEC to defend our profession is akin to being it's emissary, liaison, intermediary

This is why i keep it simple....but at the same time don't shill for the predators who've infiltrated it

Heat is the enemy , now go ask what the market has for that, and get back to me smile

~S~





Posted By: wire_twister Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/14 03:18 PM
+ 1 Hotline the cover is an important part, in the example if the cover were metal it likely would have caused the breaker to trip as soon as the plastic melted away, thus eliminating the heat source. Also the cover limits the air supply in the box(duh) and attempts to smother the fire. How many j-boxes have you opened that had charred connections? Twist the joint tight, use a listed connector, and put a cover on it!
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/26/14 08:39 PM
Assuming proper grounding, metal contact would mitigate a parallel arc. We have OCPD's of either normal or enhanced (GFCI, GFPE)caliber to mitigate this.

What do we have to mitigate series arcs?

And can anyone point it out in this UL paper

~S~
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/14 05:06 AM
Having never used a wire-nut before.
Do you guys twist the wires together before the wire-nut is fitted?
One thing I've never liked about wire-nuts, is that they can cut into the wires that they are supposed to be clamping.

A challenger appears:

[Linked Image from pdlglobal.com]

This device has a metal tunnel that the wires fit into, there is a top metallic tongue that protects the wires from the screws biting into the wires as the 2 screws are tightened.
The outside is insulated to 500VAC.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/14 06:10 AM
Trumpy:

Quote


Do you guys twist the wires together before the wire-nut is fitted?



I prefer to Pre-Twist the Conductors, prior to applying the Wire Nut.

Oh, BTW, that Terminating Device looks like a Supercharger!!! (Blower / Roots-Blower)

--Scott (EE)
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Buring Wirenut - 01/27/14 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Scott35


Oh, BTW, that Terminating Device looks like a Supercharger!!! (Blower / Roots-Blower


Scott,
Real world pictures.
These things are about an inch long and an inch wide in the domestic sizes.
As they get bigger, the terminal tunnel gets bigger, the next size up has a "tongue" that ensures the wire strands aren't damaged by the 2 screws.
The one shown is made for looping wires at a box.

[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]

[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]
Posted By: andey Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 06:56 PM
Just responding to some quesions that came up. Germany doesnt use smurf tube on-wall, the picture is just a demo. The tube usually is plastered into brick/concrete walls or used inside drywalls. Then a NYM cable (our romex equivalent, but round with an insulated ground wire) or single wires are pulled in. It's also possible to directly plaster the NYM in or use it in drywall without a tube.

Also, most of our wall boxes are round. The one shown in the pic is a wet location on-wall box missing the plastic bushings for round NYM cable.

Those spring-loaded connectors are advertised as never coming loose (compared to the ones with screws we used back in time) because the spring compensates the copper's cold flow over the years. Wirenuts are seldom seen.

I have never seen a molten spring connector unless on internet pictures. Usually the cause then is that the wire was not inserted far enough into the spring, or the wire was damaged, corroded etc. The copper has to be straight and round. If the wire is deformed from being used in a screw connector before, you should cut off a bit.
The first ones were gray but most of them are clear now so you can see the proper wire insertion.

The ones Trumpy posted are used in Italy, but I believe they only have one screw there. We had the same ones back in time but open for wires on both sides.
Posted By: andey Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 07:03 PM
http://www.hea.de/impulse/i/ausgabe/1_09/fachbeitrag2.jpg

These are typical drywall boxes (sectional view), except the top one with extra wiring space is rather rare.

Renosteinke, have you worked here as you know so much?
I have by the way never experienced a whole box pulled out of the wall even when tripping over a plugged cable. It can happen that you pull the outlet itself out though, if its not properly secured to the box.
Posted By: andey Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 07:25 PM
Sorry to put in another response, there was a question about the price. The regular size 5-way original wago is about 13 eur / 17 usd per 100pcs.

Here's a short catalogue, german, but with a lot of pictures wink
www.wago.com/infomaterial/pdf/51264393.pdf
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 07:53 PM
I did not work as an electrician in Europe, but I did other work, and traveled extensively there, back in the 80's. My travels took me to many places, on both sides of "the wall," as well as other places along the Mediterranean.

It's hard to make any "perfect" statements. Things do change over time, and each area has its' own differences. I tried to describe a common European method in terms an American would understand.

I saw quite a few boxes that no longer sat tight to the wall, and had some movement. Even completely loose boxes had their movement limited by the wires coming in to them.

You're quite right about the tubing being placed in the wall. I have never seen an American job where the electrician did what I often saw done in Europe: using a demolition hammer to carve a trench in the wall to set the tubing. The trench was then filled, as you said, with plaster.

The double-blade saws used in Europe to cut parallel grooves in masonry - blades are set about 3/4" apart - are all but unknown here. While it it possible to order one from Flex, Bosch USA told me to forget about buying one of theirs.

I like Wagos. I have only rarely seen them for sale here, though the similar Ideal "InSure" product is often seen on shelves at the parts house. I have yet to encounter one in the field that I did not instal myself.

Personally, I like the Wagos with the little levers. You can remove wires from them. I have to special order mine from a Wago distributor far from my home.
Posted By: andey Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 09:25 PM
Excuse me, my English isnt perfect.
I don't understand from your text what method americans usually use nowadays to cut a trench into a brick/concrete wall?
They still use the demolition hammers here(mostly for larger cut-outs, panels) besides double blade saws and also handheld mills/routers (English?) which cut out the complete width of the trench - with a lot of dust though.

By the way, you can remove wires from the regular wagos too by pulling the wire while rotating the connector left and right. It will leave a bit of groove in the copper and you have to take care that none of the other wires come loose while doing that. The lever type is the most comfortable way and can also connect stranded conductors of various sizes.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 09:56 PM
Reno...

That's a new one for me...

Out my way, Wagos have been available through normal distribution for years and years.

Rexel Norcal has them right up on the counter in big clear plastic, wide-mouth, square jars.

Their claim to fame is dealing with short wires in old work. You can't beat them with a stick.

The lever Wagos reduce insertion effort to nothing.

This gets around the insanity of trying to turn down a wire nut -- for a stubby that is in the back of the box.

(I'd always pull fresh conductors -- but sometimes that's impossible.)

Wire nuts win out because they work for years on end and cost less.

I prefer the Ideal 'tans.' I can really crank them down with my nut driver -- my age is telling.

As the wire count goes up, the attraction of the Wago increases. It gets touchy trying to get all of the conductors to dance together once they number past four.

The cheap Red Chinese stuff just can't stay on spec.

Even their EMT fittings have issues. (You can't assume that their locknuts will work for any connector -- just the ones they shipped with.)

My favorite WP box manufacturer sold out to China. Subsequently quality control went to $%#@. That's progress for you. BTW, no dip in wholesale or retail prices. (!)

You'd think that someone would open up a NAFTA compliant plant in northern Mexico.
Posted By: sparky Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/02/14 10:25 PM
The Wagos common here are good for 4A.

Has that rating changed?

~S~
Posted By: andey Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/03/14 12:19 AM
Maybe thats the little ones for phone wires?
The current model sold here (type 2273) can take awg 18 to 14 and is rated 24A.
Is the US model the same? I cant find an english datasheet.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Buring Wirenut - 02/03/14 01:00 AM
My box of Wago connectors has one of the larger sides completely covered with listing information.

The UL lable says they're rated for 600v, 28-12 wire. I take this to mean the connectors can carry any current #12 wire can carry.

Other agency listings have amp ratings as low as 20 amps and as high 32 amps.

Sparky, I think that either you are looking at the wrong product (perhaps one made for connecting a lamp ballast?), or you misread the marking. The "4" you saw most likely refers to the maximum wire size of 4mm (#12).
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