I officially installed my first AFCI today. When I tested the receptacles with my Ideal tester it tripped the AFCI. Also when I checked the voltage to ground it also tripped. Is this normal operation for these new paragons of safty.???

I haven't seen one yet. We don't do much residential anymore.

But I'm very interested to hear about everyones experience with them. Maybe it will save me some headaches down the road.

GJ

It is my understanding that AFCIs also have GFP protection and will trip with a 20 to 30 mA load to ground. Would the testers that you used provide this load?
Don(resqcapt19)

resqcapt:
Hmmmmmmm ? I wasnt aware of a GFP function, Yes the Ideal tester has a coil in it, I figured some type of inductive loading, or kickback. After i reset it I had the carpenter plug in his electric planer and it worked fine and then told him to turn the switch on and then plug it in and it worked fine again, so maybe that's it, other than that it worked great. Maybe now I should read the instructions ?? Ha ha ha........ You know what they say if all else fails read the instructions.

What are instructions? Is that what that extra paper everything comes with is all about. Ha who knew!

Oh, I thought that was packing material...

And I was getting ready to say "It was only a matter of time..." but since it holds under load and under switching (yeah, I know, switching is a series arc) then I'd call it good.

By all means if anyone has trouble with AFCI's "nuissance" tripping, then please report here about it whether you've solved the problem or not... We all need to know as soon as possible, to help combat the inevitable.

Steve, (sparky) you've still had mostly good luck with 'em?

I wonder if an electric drill (you know guys, the old-fashioned type with the CORD) will cause AFCIs to trip due to the arcing at the brushes.

Has anyone herd what the harmonics from a computer will do to these things?

I'm doing work on a pre-fab home that was delivered to the foundation after Jan 1. In addition to the basement, garage, HVAC and gameroom wiring, I had to replace three regular breakers with 15A AFCI breakers.
The circuits that the breakers feed are not strictly bedroom circuits but a bedroom along with a bathroom or a utility room (laundry) or the living room. Evidently, the home designers weren't thinking AFCI or 2002 NEC when they built this home.
I've had two problems so far. The first was an AFCI that tripped whenever an under-cabinet fluorescent light fixture mounted in a bedroom clothes closet was switch on. I took the fixture apart and made sure that none of the solid conductors inside the fixture were near sharp metal edges. I also found that one of the lamp sockets was broken with the plastic missing from part of the socket. This was the side of the socket that was near the metal case. I applied strips of Scotch 88 to the case to prevent arcing from the socket and the breaker no longer trips.
Another AFCI breaker trips apparently for no reason and will not usually reset. I swapped circuits with an adjacent AFCI breaker and that one did not trip. I suspect the breaker is defective and will attempt to return it to Cutler Hammer.

yeah Virg....

I'm still climbing the bell curve associated with any new widget. There seems to be a number of situations where the AFCI is not as user friendly.

Case in point is thier installation after an invereted supply, this is not a true wavefrom per se', it is a 'stepped' one.

I've yet to receive concise info on the efficy and/or diagnostic approach to a specific waveform monitor's (AFCI) interpetation of an imperfect or distorted waveform.

The suppliers are completely in the dark, salesman simply along for the ride, not much more....

The manufacturer's have few that can converse about such maladys, and frustrate me with thier 'installer error' stonewalling.

The only tester i've found looks $$$$....rumors about other testers abound. The methods will probably spring up from the forums





[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-28-2002).]

Am I missing something here, Sparky, are you talking Inverters, and afci's. And someone mentioned harmonics,
My question is this where in residential would you have harmonics and and inverter type supplies.
Its my understanding that AFCI s are strictly for residential use. There maybe a hangup with them down the road, and I have only used one and it appears to be working fine.
After reading the instructions on the unit I found no reference to a gfp protection, at least on the siemens model, which is predominately what I use.
But before we throw the 'baby out with the bath water' we ought to give these things a good shot.
just my humble opinion.
-Mark-

motor-T,
there are plenty of individuals living 'off grid' using a stand alone System , as it is still a dwelling, the 125v ( debatable code vernacular) is to be wired compliant to 210-12, et all..

Where Trace & Hart may have a 30-50 step 'wave', others may not, and disclaimers for 'sensitive' electronic equipment follow suit....thus my concern....

I do not see mention of a GFI protection level on the instructions per se', but i do see much to insinuate GFI configuration @ Zan's site , i.e.-current x-formers w/logic,

oh, note on the inst. the megger warning, then think 30 yrs of spikes from now...

To further purse the 'GFI' similarity read here

in response to 'parrallel' arc's...

in response to 'series' arc's...


note parrallel seems no problem, series is graciously avoided....



I for one, am still waiting........

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-28-2002).]

In response to the series vs. parallel arc response of AFCIs--

I thought the whole technology was based on asymetrical waveforms, and therefore not current-dependent. Don't all arcs impose a relatively high resistance? I understand that series arcs also are in series with the load, thereby limiting current flow additionally, but again I thought the issue was the shape of the current wave, not the magnitude.

Someone please enlighten me?

Redsy,
I don't think they even start looking at the arc waveform until it has over 50 amps flowing in the arc.

From Brenden Foley's post of 12/17 at 2:30 pm in the Arc Fault Breaker thread on the NEC & code issue forum.

Don(resqcapt19)

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 02-28-2002).]

Having stuffed panels full of AFCI's i am now having trouble with them accumulating more heat than normal breakers would.

This then creates a lower thermal trip than usual.

I am learning that i am not an isolated incident here, others are spacing AFCI's apart using normal breakers to alieviate the heat buildup.

Just to add some FYI, once a Plasma [Arc] is established, the Conducting area / path which it's composed of becomes highly Conductive [high MHOs, very low OHMs], and may extend into the "Negative Resistance" region if conditions allow [meaning that the Conducting area which is "Inside The Plasma Envelope" has not just zero Ohms Resistance, but the Resistance figure falls below zero into negative numbers].

This highly Conductive thingee makes the Plasma able to draw high Currents - and the clincher: With the increase of Currents flowing, the Plasma and Conduction area also increases; which allows higher Current flow; which increases the Plasma size; which increases the Current flow; which increases the Plasma size;... on and on until something gives out [aka total available current flow level is reached, no more current available, rupture of conducting surface / material, introduction of "Positive Resistance" at the contact points in the form of heat energy: this is normally glowing materials and/or fire].

Since a Plasma in Series with a given load [series arc] is bridging the gap between source and load, there is a limit point for total current flow.

Parallel flow paths [parallel arcs] are limited only by the circuit's characteristics, so they can be high or low flows, or high then low at random.

One other thing related to a Plasma with AC systems is that the Capacitive nature of the Conduction path results in an increased Voltage, plus spikes and surges of Voltage.
A swing of Power Factor into the Leading PF

This stuff relates to the elementary phenomina.

The AFCIs analyze the characteristics of Current waveforms and try to match the characteristics when "Called Upon To Do So" [aka trigger into alarm status]. This trigger follows increases in Voltage - such as Spikes and Surges.
The match-up of known Current waveform characteristics with a related Voltage situation is analyzed for a given time to see if it continues. If it does, the AFCI trips. If the scenario does not continue steadily for the minimum test period, the alarm is reset and the process begins once again when a new alarm trigger occurs.

Very intelligent pieces of equipment!

Like Spock says: Fascinating

I hope this makes sense and is accurately recursed from my slowly and steadily fading memory to the keyboard and finally to the forum.

So to answer your question, Yes I do believe that if you turn on the Water when taking a Shower, you will have much better results.

What were we talking about again???

<memory loss joke>

Scott S.E.T.