Is it just me or does this board seem to have shifted a bit in its overall tone.

I know this is an unavoidable trend in all message boards...

It just seems that we have a few heavy volume posters who see fit to quickly cut down all posters with a legitimate question or job related discussion topic...

Just seems to be a fee smart a@# people

Just curious if it is only me who feels this way?

I have examples and much more to say but I will let this open to discussion first

I think we are all pretty polite to echother here... Some other forums - not so nice... They often do have a different tone. As many of us also frequent them I think sometimes we might come back in here with bad habits, (I could be guilty of that too.) and not notice it. But for the most part... I made an analogy to someone in a PM about this and another forum... 'It's the difference between "Free Swim" and "Adult Swim" at the public pool.' Both have advantages, depending on what you are comfortable with.

You must also understand that we are from all types of cultural and geographic backrounds. Something said, in one area of the US means one thing, said directly and to the point - not big deal. In the other place you should have beat around the bush for a while and should have been more vague. i.e Diplomatic....

I grew up on the East Coast - where you say what you mean, and mean what you say. But I live on the West Coast, where you need to be more sensitive, or people lable you as 'angry', or 'agressive'. Which one is better, neither!

I have been in the field only 3 years total now in my apprenticeship. No where on the internet or at work for that matter have i ever met a more dedicated group of people than on the ecn. I would not have gotten this far without them. Im 48 and this is the most professional website on the web. I have not noticed any change but that may just be me. It could be that there are more people useing the ecn than before and we are meeting different people with different backgrounds. Just a guess but i have not noticed a different tone in the forum. Just my 1 cent worth though.
Steve

There will always some spirited conversations and if they are not abusive or personal attacks (I know that there can be diferent interpretations what constitutes abusive or personal attacks) there is nothing wrong with them.

If you see or feel there is something that is offensive contact one of the Moderators or the Webmaster, it will be looked at.

Roger

one of the better run boards on the net is my vote. Yes, there are volume posters here, but even that has its own ebb and flow if you stick around long enough. Overall the quality is good, almost nonexistant personal fighting bickering and personal bashing among members, and a very professional and "on topic" group of admins. I have no complaints about the tone or overall management of the forum.

Are some posters a bit sarcastic at times? Sure. I have read it too, but whatever, sometimes there is humor in the sarcasm too..adds a bit of levity. As forums go, this one ain't so bad, really. Precious few ongoing fights and precious little trolling going on here. Wish I could say the same for the rest of the internet.

Please don't misinterpret my point.

I agree with all of the posts above

I am not insinuating that any personal attacks or bickering take place...the lack thereof is one of the best features of this site.

I just feel that some folks look to quickly disprove a poster and are in a race to post the related code reference that proves he is wrong...rather than engage in constructive discussion about the topic.

These feelings can also be transferred to offline interactions with electricians I talk to as well.

Any thoughts...

I sure wish the Electrical contractors in my Area would get to gether and share Ideas but been doing this for 20 years and not many want to talk.

I call what I *believe* you are describing "know-it-all-ism". I see that a LOT out in the workaday world. Annoying? Yes. Boring? Yes. Un-educational? Yes. Stifling to constructive & enlightening communication? Yes. But I am not sure how you would change human nature to separate this out from some people's personalities. A quixotic task at best. On another note, wrong is wrong. If a peice of work or trade practice is outside of code, it is outside of code. Period. Does that make it right or wrong in a given situation or set of circumstances? Maybe. Thats the beauty of differing perspectives and opinions, and ultimately, of this forum where we get to exchange them, along with a bit of knowlege and experience to boot..

Maybe some in here do swoop down too quickly and aggressively chiming in on this or that, but remember to take it all with a grain of salt, read you codebook, and keep your eye on the target, which is to maybe learn a thing or two from other people who may have a different outlook than you. Different people have different communication abilities, educational/professional backgrounds, work loads/free time to compose choerent & literate posts in here at a given point in time,and largeness of vocabulary. All these factors and more play into the tone, brevity and content of posts and replies. If you doubt it, pop into chat a few times on a Friday, talk to a few members in "real time" and you may get a better sense of who the real people are behind the screen names. Even some of the smart a$$edness has it's own context.

Hi, all. I don't post much around here but I enjoy many of the threads. I thought I would respond to this thread only because I am 100% in agreement about the topic. I agree that crappy attitudes, snap replies or simple lack of participation is going on with many support sites that I either moderate, support or simply visit. It's everywhere.

I witnessed a guy cursing out the cashier at a convenience store today because the sales tax calculation was off by two cents for his purchase. He even went as far as to go to his car, return to the cashier and attempt to prove that the register is wrong. The guy ended up being wrong, but he was just so nasty about the whole thing as many other people seem to be these days.

One site seems to include members who enjoy chastising people who ask (no trade mentioned) questions of the professionals. What's the point in offering a support forum if they are just going to sit there and discuss business issues, wholesale pricing and bash end-users looking for support? These guys sit there and chat back and forth in threads about the "moron" who started a thread. I think we know who the true morons are.

Attitudes seem to be rough all over, not just on sites, but even in regular conversation. Everyone is running at full-throttle these days and it's taking it's toll on peoples' personalities. In my case, business has been terribly slow for several months, so my patience is also wearing thin. It seems as if I am not alone.

It used to be that sites like this one included a lot of humor and comradery, but it's waining.......everywhere. Maybe it's due to the gas prices! Maybe when Spring finally gets here, attitudes will change. Let's start getting ready. It was near 60 today, I am ready for it!

Yes, the 'areas' are sometimes tough. Abusive, loud, downright nasty, 'spaced-out' and more than I feel like typing.

The world, or the areas that most of us are in, are harried, and the pressure is usually always "ON".

On the other hand, HERE, (ECN) is for the most part a calming zone. I come here to read, ask, share, and YES, get help. As to the 'attitudes'.....not in my book.

Mr. Bill, Roger, Bob, MIke, Scott, Don, and the other moderators do an outstanding job keeping this place "CLEAN" and relativley calm.

Heated discussions?? Yes, that's what a forum is about!

A while back, when copper $$ jumped sky high, two guys here passed on a supplier that was still low! That's appreciated, and how some guys 'work together'.

Mr. Bill....I've been here a while, still reading, writing, and enjoying.

John

It's funny how a forum, and a poster, change over time.
My first posts here were more than a little stiff. I won't deny it: I was nervous, and afraid. How would my comments be received? I was also a bit restless with questions that seemed too "basic" to me ... but, as time went by, I began to appreciate the great range covered by the "electrical trade."

I was happy to see that my comments were read, considered ... and sometimes contested!

Having been educated by the same Nuns that taught Joliet Jake and Elwood Blues, my grammar is somewhat formal. Some have mistaken this as pride, and seemed in bliss when given the chance to comment on some of my work . A lot of that went away, once they were sure I was not full of my own importance.

I've appreciated the discussions here. I have had others spot my errors, suggest proper solutions, even suggest things I would never have thought of! I've even had a few code 'details' pointed out that I had forgotten.

Sure, we've had some lively threads recently. For example, a thread about supposed stray voltage got hot when someone referred to the town as a 'hick town' ... our members there were most incensed. (Seems they are 'hillbillies,' not 'hicks,' and there's a big difference to them ). Or when yours truly suggested that it took more than 0.64 questions on a professional exam to make one an electrical expert. (Those who took that particular exam were not amused).(There I go again! ).

On the 'plus' side, the moderators hardly ever have to step in. ECN seems free of the childish antics, flame wars, threats of violence, stuffiness, hair splitting, or self-appointed "house experts" that some other sites seem to foster.

Trust me on this ... the moderators know about those other sites. Having varied interests, they participate - often as simple members - in forums dealing with topics as diverse as old machinery, HVAC, and even cats!

Hope you hang around, NJ. ECN is certainly not a place where everyone has to fit the same mold!

Uh oh...Reno, I think you just jinxed ECN!!
J/K

What could be more constructive then showing where one is wrong by using the code?? Are we supposed to follow the code? I'm amazed at how a few posters on here spew code like its their first language. I also realize I know diddly squat in comparison

I am obviously a 'volume poster' and I am quick to point out a code section.

It's what I do, I realize at times I may come across as harsh even when I do not mean to.

Yes,at times I mean to come down a bit hard when I feel it is needed.

But read what trolldog had to say..




I could not have said it better at all.

I post code section numbers in the hope that people will in fact look at the book themselves.

My posts are only my opinion of the code, everyone should read the section themselves and see what they feel the section means.

I personally dislike when some posts without giving code sections, I find that to be of little help.

Example:

QUESTION:Do I count the neutral as a current carrying conductor?

ANSWER: Yes

Now what help is that?

To me a good answer would include the code section 310.15(B)(4) and some commentary.




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-01-2007).]

You have volume posters, lurkers, and, of course, the village idiot (AKA me) who is often too quick to not point out a violation, but the (sometimes) best solution...

Dynamite, sludge hammer, whatever works.

But that's just me being destructive me.

My posts have changed from "What the heck is that?" (two-year old voice) to "Oh, that's what that does." This forum's definately a good place to learn anything about this trade, that I hope to someday belong to.

For anyone, myself included, I find this to be one of the most professional forums out there.

Ian A.

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 03-01-2007).]

I certainly don't think so and I visit everyday.


Message boards in my opinion are like everything else, they change, like everything else.


I notice that too from time to time but I try (keyword is try) to not let it bother me. I think I am one of the heavy volume posters. But that's just because my thirst for knowledge is never ending, and there are alot of good electricians that post here and when I can pick their brains I do it.


True, but you're never going to change people like that so why bother complaining. Just my $0.02.


Obviously not.

Well, I like to lurk 'n' learn here, too- and I must say, Ladies and Gentlemen, that this is one of the most amiable and professional forums that I participate in. And there are hardly any drunk posters with political myopia, too!(hardly any!) Best violation photos, too and where else could you get a blow-by-blow of a Levittown rehab from one of the more interesting members of the next generation(thanks Ian)

This reminds me of a kid in school that was "always first to raise his hand with the correct answer. It was considered an attribute there, and I don't see why it shouldn't be here, as well.
After all, the related Code reference IS the right answer.
As for discussion of WHY it's right, it's been a long time since I've seen anyone post "Because the Code says so", or "Because I'm the inspector and I say so". The constructive discussions take place, but it seems best to have the accepted correct answer first.

I'm right in there with Bob when he says he posts "Code section numbers in the hope that people will in fact look at the book themselves." I've done the same many times, for the same reason, sometimes posting only the related code section number.
You are given tools, it's up to you to use them. (There was always that kid in school too, who looked over others' shoulders to get the answers to the tests, but never learned a darn thing)
We've had members who have wanted to discuss endlessly points that they consider logical and correct, but don't even bother to ever open (or in a couple of cases even own) a reference book.

I feel a lot of luv in this thread.

I've had the NEC 2005 Handbook right here since I joined the site.

Me too... Next to the icon/short cut that brings me here.

I find just he opposite of this forum than the original post implies. Everybody is very helpful and seem rather happy to be of assistance. If you want to see some attitudes, check out Mike Holts forum some time. I certainly intend no disrespect to Mike, but some of the people on that forum make a point to be abrasive and ugly.

The only time we shoot anybody down here is when they clearly do not belong in a professional forum, and are asking questions of us that imply that they are a "weekend warrior" and are in way over their head - in which case we usually point out that they should contact a professional - for their safety and those around them.

I agree, some of the other BBs are loaded with a lot of people who want to pick a fight. The worst are those who call themselves "instructors". It seems that if they ever tricked someone to pay to listen to a couple hours of their drivel they become self appointed experts. That may be the biggest flaw in the CEU system. It seems that anyone can get a "course" approved.

I don't post very often, mostly because I don't have that much time. As my wife calls me an old grumpy dinosaur, I very much enjoy this place and try to follow the threads because even "old, grumpy dinosaurs" can learn a lot of new stuff. At least, sometimes it's new to me and some of the info here has helped me in my business by making the work practices a bit more efficient.

In this business, every little bit helps out.

Even though I am still involved in the aviation regulation area of work on a full time basis, I still have the EC business to run on the side, supported by a couple of superb apprentices that do most of the "grunt" work during the day when I'm tied up inspecting pilots and aviation operators.

The information here on this board has been very helpful from time to time because there is a stupendous wealth of knowledge, experience and skill lurking around here and for the most part it seems genuine. Whenever someone (other than an obvious hacker) needs some advice it comes flowing forth in large helpful gushes.

Yes, sometimes folks get a bit PO'd and go after something or someone, but that's kind of normal in any line of work, so no, I don't think there has been a change in tone on the board, and I hope most of the rest of us see it the same way. BTW, sometimes I too get annoyed at things - not only here but at life in general, but I've found that even as an "old grumpy dinosaur" sometimes it's best to sit back for a bit and wait and think before hitting someone or the "send" key. Usually the "hitting" has some kind of consequence.

When I first became a member here, I tried to participate, and encountered the same. My posts seemed to always be replied to with comments that were made to prove me wrong, or leave me in a position to answer back in hopes I would make a fool of myself. Therefore, I don't make many posts now, but I do come here to read and learn new things.
And yes, I've learned a lot.

Hmmm ... two posters who've been made to feel unwelcome at times .... for the "home team," this should be a wake-up call.

Otherwise, I was once at another forum where the self-appointed electrical "guru" took exception to my opinion. Even to this day, he will occasionally accuse me of being an electrician (as if that were a bad thing ). Yet, his ranting and flaming stopped the moment I called him on it.

If someone 'dumps' on you, call them on it. We have a trade that covers an immense amount of ground, and no one knows it all. Often, there are more than a few 'correct' answers.

Different folks have different styles; it sometimes pays to let things slide. If someone is being rude, you can usually count on others to jump in.

A fine example of the self-control exercised by our members was seen a few years ago. A gent with a user name similar to "Wacky Tabaccy Toker" posted that he loved electric work, but didn't like attics, crawl spaces, ladders, or being in the weather. He sought career advice. That the responses were lacking in profane remarks is a small miracle.
You can be sure we were all tempted BTW, don't bother looking for that thread; THAT time the moderators made it 'disappear.'

"This reminds me of a kid in school that was "always first to raise his hand with the correct answer. It was considered an attribute there, and I don't see why it shouldn't be here, as well"

Did anybody like this kid?

"This reminds me of a kid in school that was "always first to raise his hand with the correct answer. It was considered an attribute there, and I don't see why it shouldn't be here, as well"

Yes remember well, one is now the mayor of a large city, and the other is our local doctor.

Once again being a professional,doctor or politician is being held up as the measure of success...uh not in my book.

That's OK, some of the moderators have banned themselves before *Cough*Scott*Cough*Mike*Cough.

Ian A.

I've noticed that if you come to this forum as a "lazy" information seeker, meaning that you didn't bother to use the search function once before you asked "ground up or ground down"!?) you might get less than exuberant replies. There is a tremendous amount of info here at ECN locked in the archives to be gleaned. Please take a moment or two to study previous questions and responses before posting. I think it shows respect! The site might then "feel" a bit warmer to the lurking/questioning stranger. John

There are some here who sometimes might discourage new startups with the truthful facts that they dispense. They mean to help not to discourage, but if you read some of those posts carefully, they sure don't read that way all the time. That is where the most put downs show up in this forum in my opinon. There are many very large electrical contracting outfits in this land, but most if not all can trace the roots back to some old sparky and his pickup truck. So I like to encourage all the new startup guys, difficulty or not enough business sense nontheless.

In the same vein as Twin City, I read the ENTIRE General Discussion, Violation photos, photos submitted for Discussion, Electrical Nostalgia, NEC code issues, and occupational safety sections back to front, before ever joining, no repeat topics for me!

-Will

Folks,
I have a certain sinking feeling that this thread could have been started because of me to a certain degree.
I am not making any excuses for my conduct here, my sense of humour seems to go over some people's heads (as twisted as it is).
I am not here to annoy anyone, less so drive people away, if you feel that I have wronged you, please by all means send me an e-mail and we can get this sorted out.
I may go way off-topic and have a few stories that I have built up in my years of working as an Electrician, etc, I mean no harm in anything I post, if you read it twice, it might even be funny.
As someone said above, times have changed since this board was created, people work longer and harder for the same amount of money, that has to impact on your "off-site" life.
Just my $0.02 worth.

{Message edited to add middle bit}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-07-2007).]

Trumpy, I bet it was never you. You have never seemed to come off wrong even once in my book. So keep messing up, as it were.

I second what macmikeman said..don't worry Trumpy, it's most positively not you.

Overall, with a few exceptions, this is indeed the friendliest forum. Some people do come off the wrong way, maybe due to a bad day or maybe sometimes just not reading closely enough before responding to a post.

And sometimes a different level of experience comes into play. Remember that not all of us do commercial electrical, or residential, or deal with sensitive equipment all the time. What works for one facet of the trade may or may not work for other facets of the trade.

I think reno said it best with this statement:


Something everyone from the top down needs to keep in mind when responding to a question or situation.

But in general, ECN is still the best run and most informative of the electrical forums I've encountered. Bill and the mods do a good job overall.

One thing I will say from a Moderators point of view, is the fact that most of the folks here are very well behaved.
I am a moderator over at a local (non-electrical) board and we are riddled with internet trolls that look to upset every thread that is posted there.
I would like to say though, thanks to the Members, Moderators and Admin here for keeping this place so clean and tidy.
This has to be the best place on the Internet as far as a Community goes.
Please keep it up guys.