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Posted By: Theelectrikid Here's something to read - 02/06/07 03:50 PM
Bucks County Courier Times: Wiring woes can strike old, new homes
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-02062007-1294814.html

I wonder how many people will call an electrician the next time their outlets shoot sparks, after reading this article?

Seems like a good wake-up call, if anyone bothers to read it beyond "skimming over" it.

Ian A.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Here's something to read - 02/06/07 04:08 PM
The problem is that so many people have an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to electricity, until something goes drastically wrong, by which time it's too late. That and the "It works, so it must be O.K." philosophy.

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In 2002, federal regulations began requiring that bedrooms in all new homes include arc fault interrupters.

And what federal regulations would they be?
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Here's something to read - 02/06/07 06:43 PM
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And what federal regulations would they be?

Must be the "*National* Electric Code", national = federal? :-)
Posted By: BigB Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 02:44 AM
"There are plenty of signs that a home has developed an electrical problem, including flickering or dimming lights"

All you Sparkies in that area better get ready for all the calls on dimming lights tomorrow.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 07:03 AM
This shows the disconnect between what people think an AFCI does and reality. "Dimming and flickering lights" is a symptom of a loose wire and that is the kind of arc an AFCI can't see (series)
Posted By: johno12345 Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 07:55 AM
Not that I know but I assumed that an AFCI _could_ detect an arc on a broken or lose wire where the arc was phase - phase? I take it that it will trip on a phase - neutral or phase - earth arc where a normal breaker wouldnt because the current being used in the arc ist sufficient to cause an overload or short circuit condition.

I wonder if they will make an appearance in the UK. Overheated or sparking connections dont seem as common from what I have read and seen, except on shower circuits >7kw mainly down to dodgy DIY!

[This message has been edited by johno12345 (edited 02-07-2007).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 02:20 PM
Here in Austria I personally encountered arcing connections in the wall twice. In both cases it was a ca. 1900 connection that had been worked on in the second half of the 20th century.
The first encounter was in my very own place. Nosy as I am I started the full rewire by pulling the wires out of cramped junction boxes to figure out the old wiring layout. A few hours later I heard weird crackling noises from one of those boxes... I immediately knew it was electrical! Unscrewed the fuse and it stopped...
There wasn't much heat - the PVC electrical tape around the connection was barely darkened. Turned out the original connection was wires wrapped around a screw and secured with a washer and nut. When someone rewired the bathroom in 1962 he didn't tighten the connection sufficiently and when I moved it it started arcing under load (2kW electric quartz heater).

Second time was a service call for receptacles in an office not working. Each box we opened contained a solid stuffed mess of black wires (in the days before PVC wire insulation they didn't bother color coding fixed wiring, cloth wire was always black). Opening the last box (actually a wooden frame in the plastered brick wall) we fpund a twisted and taped connection that had burnt and even slightly charred the wood. Replaced it with a "choc block" and we were done.
Posted By: ITO Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 04:11 PM
Ever notice on TLCs “Flip this House” they never upgrade the electrical unless the inspector makes them do it. Oh they will put in new fixtures and or spend 20k on a new kitchen with granite countertops but they will not bring it up to code or put in a new service no matter how badly it may need one, unless they are forced to by the AJH. The same goes for plumbing.

I even saw an episode where the “flipper” was advised by a realtor NOT to tear out walls because they did not want to expose any electrical problems that needed to be fixed. The comment “out of site, out of mind” is exactly correct.

Then the new buyer comes in and buys this “completely remodeled” house, which has the same electrical service and branch wiring it had when it was built 30 years ago.

The problem is people don’t value the infrastructure of a house until they have to pay to fix it, or it fails and ruins their investment. (Key word being “investments”) Most people see their house as an investment, and don’t want to spend money on something they don’t have too, and won’t show a return. If you completely rewire an old house, you have increased the value by exactly zero, but if you put in a whole new kitchen, you can double your money, even if all the kitchen receptacles are on one circuit.

Just my thoughts on it…
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 05:15 PM
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Ever notice on TLCs “Flip this House” they never upgrade the electrical unless the inspector makes them do it. Oh they will put in new fixtures and or spend 20k on a new kitchen with granite countertops but they will not bring it up to code or put in a new service no matter how badly it may need one, unless they are forced to by the AHJ. The same goes for plumbing.

"AHJ? Inspector? What's that?!?" Seriously, If the inspector on any of those shows isn't passed a couple hundred big 'uns, I'd be very surprised, due to the work done on those shows.

The really scary part comes when at the beginning of the show, all you see is ungrounded 1-15s, and at the end, "grounded" 5-15 Decoras. Also when the kitchen has one ungrounded recept. to start, and several "grounded" recepts to end, without a GFCI in sight.

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I even saw an episode where the “flipper” was advised by a realtor NOT to tear out walls because they did not want to expose any electrical problems that needed to be fixed. The comment “out of site, out of mind” is exactly correct.

What do you expect from the RE agent that's making more than anyone on the show? "Get it done now! Now! NOW! So I can get my money!"


Ian A.

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 02-07-2007).]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 06:29 PM
All of these TV "fix up" shows are roadrunner cartoons. It is not a place to get real information, they only intend to entertain and sell products.
Most of the homeowners who allow the TV crews in are left with a mess and a stack of bills when they leave. If it doesn't actually get shown in the "wrap up" segment they didn't do it. When the stage director says "cut" they are gone.
Personally I would rather buy a "fixer upper" than to buy a house that was "renovated" since most renovations are purely cosmetic. At least when you buy a house in the original condition you have some clues to what you have to fix and you won't be ripping out newly finished cosmetics to get to the systems they should have fixed.
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Here's something to read - 02/07/07 07:07 PM
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Personally I would rather buy a "fixer upper" than to buy a house that was "renovated" since most renovations are purely cosmetic. At least when you buy a house in the original condition you have some clues to what you have to fix and you won't be ripping out newly finished cosmetics to get to the systems they should have fixed.

Ditto!!
Posted By: ITO Re: Here's something to read - 02/08/07 12:43 AM
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"AHJ? Inspector? What's that?!?"

Take a look at NEC 2005 Article 100 Definitions.
(pp 70-26)

Sure the shows are not entirely every thing you see, but it does happen exactly this way often enough. Improvements to infrastructure don’t increase your house value, while cosmetic improvements can have a double return. It’s an interesting peak into the American value system.

I completely rewired my old house from the ground up, new service, new branch, new devices and lots of new outlets. I even put in a sub panel to my detached garage, with lights and outlets for my workshop. Added value when I put in on the market ZERO. The realtor could not have been less interested in the updated wiring, and even told me he cant sell new electric service, but I had put in a new kitchen that would have helped. We sold the house for less than I wanted.
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Here's something to read - 02/08/07 01:36 AM
Believe me, I know what the AHJ/Inspector is, but I'm not sure some of the TV Personalities do.

Ian A.
Posted By: ITO Re: Here's something to read - 02/08/07 02:03 AM
I am certain they know what one is, especially when one shuts down the show until they get a permit.
Posted By: e57 Re: Here's something to read - 02/08/07 09:06 AM
Im sure many of those type of shows have had some serious "Inspector" issues in them, as many have been sued for slipshod work done during them. (Or attempted to be sued...) But that does make for good TV veiwing so that all hits the editing floor. Notice that even "This old house" rarely shows an inspector actualy on the show...

I believe there are a few guys around here that even have been on one of those shows if I remember right?
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Here's something to read - 02/08/07 01:14 PM
I am certain they know what one is, especially when one shuts down the show until they get a permit.

Good point. They know what/who he/she is, but doesn't contact them until the show gets cut.

Ian A.
Posted By: ITO Re: Here's something to read - 02/08/07 04:20 PM
The point I was trying to make is still the same, our work in not valued until the AJH makes someone do it, and then it is just seen as a waste of money done for bureaucratic reasons. The only time our trade becomes important is when a house burns down, then you had better hope all the electrical was done exactly by the book, or someone may get sued.

Look at the original topic, it was a Fire Marshal that had his own house upgraded to cover the demand he felt two daughters would create, it was not your average home owner. The average home owner would rather have granite counter tops than a new code compliant and safe service, and he thinks Decora devices are much more important than the actual grounding.

“Out of site, out of mind is completely” apropos.


[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 02-08-2007).]
Posted By: jdadamo Re: Here's something to read - 02/09/07 02:46 AM
I was watching "Flip this House" once and they had just purchased a bathroom mirror that was too large and covered the light switch. The guy said "it's ok, we'll just move the swtich." In a later shot, there is the light switch moved and a huge patch in the wall.

Hidden junction box/flying splice in the wall, anyone??

Joey
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Here's something to read - 02/09/07 03:30 AM
Cutting corners to make a profit, those type 'renovations' are filled with violations that the unsuspecting buyer is not aware of. IMO

That show is interesting to watch though. I would like to see a show where us electricians are also filmed. Instead of just what is on the surface of a renovation ie; drywall, hardwood flooring, landscapes etc.
Posted By: frenchelectrican Re: Here's something to read - 02/09/07 06:16 AM
i did saw one show i dont rember when one guy got ticked off when he saw the tag on the doorway saying dont have proper permits and shut the place down until the permits is line up.

that guy was really ticked off but i going to laugh they did not get the proper permits before they start drag the tools there and do it

i dont know why i noted that most show they never say anything about inspection and O/C permit at all

Merci , Marc
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