I'm finishing a 3800' home I didn't rough. Through the inspector I got a call from the Sparky that did. He has a 'candle' circuit dropped at panel to go on a timer. My understanding is that all circuits on a 'yoke' must diconnect together. The candle circuit appears in 7 areas, 8 inc. garage, 3 are bedrooms.

That's an unknown term to me. What's a candle circuit?

Could it it be this nightmare?
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5174645.html
Abstract: An electric candle comprised of an electric lamp supported on a cylindrical casing above a base, said cylindrical casing having conductive strips connected to a power supply in said base and controlled by a switch means consisted of a spring coil around a conductor, said base having a sound pick up, a sound producing means at the inside, wherein making a sound causes said sound pick up to connect the electric circuit permitting said lamp bulb and said sound producing means to give light and sound respectively; blowing a stream of current through vent holes on said lamp cap causes said switch means to cut off the electric circuit permitting said lamp bulb and said sound producing means to stop giving light or sound.

At one time we had candle circuit on a designers dwg. when we questioned what was the candle circuit, they told us it was a night light circuit for security, designer can't charge $300 for night light circuit but wow a candle circuit, now that sounds like a deal.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-15-2007).]

I believe hes talking about a nightlite circuit, either way YES - if on the same yoke, they would have to have the same disconnecting means. (In residential) See section 210.4(B)

Alternatively, you could use the same circuit as the one used for the outlet, and use that "Candle Circuit" wiring as control wiring for a small relay in each box. I dont know who makes them, I have installed them like them a lot, but since that one job... have not seen them available ANYWHERE - I have looked. But it was a small contactor (120 coil) 1"X1" cube with pigtails on it. Fit right inside the device box without taking up much room in a 4S with ring.... That would solve your problem, but I don't know where you could get them....

Sorry I wasn't too clear. The circuit for each room is ALSO in the candle circuit box.(They're for decoration, usually has an electric 'candle' on the sill above.

57,

Did the fire department come to the house after installation?

The one we did, it looked like the house was on fire from the outside.
Just advise the users they should let the neighbors know what they are, or they may find fire department there, if they use them as night lights.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-15-2007).]

Wooo Hoo I think I found something simular to what I was looking for......
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0372.pdf
See the PR-1 but I believe the ones I used before had higher rating for the contacts....

derater, so what the other circuit is in the box, thats fine - you just cant have two circuits on the same "yoke" without same disconnecting means....

This way, if you have the box volume, you use the same circuit for the outlet, switched and not switched side and only use that "Candle Circuit" to trigger the relay for the switched side - that way they are not on the same yoke.... Effect is the same.... They get operated by the timer, and turn off and on.... You just may need to locate something simular with 15A contacts.

FYI the lsat time I used these was to shut off all the bath room and common lighting in a med. rise office building after hours. Someone else wired - just like you... but didn't wire for lighting controls... I used sever dozen of these to drop down to nightlighting from a single timer.

Building still stands today.... That place is bomb proof rated! Poured concrete blast barrier out front.... They were only switching 2-3 amps each on what I think I remember them to be 15A motor/lighting rated contacts. Dont think those are the ones I had, but were darned simular...

derater,

Are they calling the visual alart for a fire alarm signal a candle circuit?

57 these may be the ones you used http://www.smarthome.com/4633.html they have the small relays you were talking about, much nicer to work with.



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-15-2007).]

Receptacles in question are ALL located under windows, meant for 'colonial' decorative fake candles, plugged into 'timed' circuit.

Sounds to me like "Christmas candles in the window" circuit...with a timer to turn them off after a period of time. I'd guess a handle tie on the breakers should take care of the simultaneous disconnection means since both circuits originate from the same panel.

Do I understand correctly that the problem is that the "candle" circuit goes to many places, and the shared duplex receptacles are on various different circuits, depending on which room you are in? In other words, to have all circuits that are sharing various common yokes all switch at once would require many poles, like perhaps a 6-pole or 9-pole breaker?

You could do one of the following:

1) Convert all the split duplexes back to normal duplexes, which are only fed by the "candle" circuit.

2) Convert the split duplexes to double duplexes, or to a single plus a duplex, with one yoke on the "candle" circuit, and the other on the local circuit.

3) Connect all the duplexes to the normal circuits in the room, and plug in X-10 or Insteon controllers to control the candles.

"3) Connect all the duplexes to the normal circuits in the room, and plug in X-10 or Insteon controllers to control the candles."

That is how the ones we did were controlled, with X10's. no need for split circuits, that allowed them to select each light, or all on, and the timer was easy to change manual or stored program.

I have tried using X10 plug-in lamp modules for this in the past with marginal success. It seems that the modules require a certain amount of connected load (60 watts I believe). I had to use 60 watt candelabra bulbs in them and then dim them down with the X10 control. Have they changed these modules in the past year or so to pemit lower wattage loads?

"I have tried using X10 plug-in lamp modules for this in the past with marginal success. It seems that the modules require a certain amount of connected load (60 watts I believe). I had to use 60 watt candelabra bulbs in them and then dim them down with the X10 control."
"Have they changed these modules in the past year or so to pemit lower wattage loads?"

I have been using them for many years, with excellant results, using the correct modules and bridges where necessary avoids most problems, our city fire sirens operated without a problem for over 40 years using X10 type of control.
Lamp modules will not work for low current devices, you need to use an appliance module,
for loads other than incandescent lamps, such as fluorescent lamps, high-intensity discharge lamps, and electrical appliances, you will find the logic in the lamp module is unsuitable for operation, and an appliance module must be used instead.
The appliance module switches the power using an impulse relay, these modules are rated to control loads that may range from a very small current, up to 15 amperes, good for his application.

No modules have not changed, just select the right one for the application.

Holiday Package?

Good extra to through in....

We have these everywhere here in Lancaster Pa. You could cut in a box above horzontally with single receptacle and use your receptacle as a junction box. then put that circuit on a timer/control. You will have to use arc fault on this circuit if in bedrooms as well. These outlets do not count as genral use receptacles and should not be counted as part of 210.52.

Hope this helps!
Ob

FYI,
Candle circuits are for candles in the windows that is a tradition the Amish, Mennonites have, I think it is to welcome strangers, back in the day of horse and buggy.

Ob

A discussion point that came up in a DIY forum, almost as bad as 'ground up or down'....

What happens if these receptacles are present in a kitchen or dining room?

One argument was that all receptacles in the kitchen or dining room have to be part of small appliance branch circuits and then cannot extend out of these rooms. The other argument was that as long at these receptacles are in addition to the required receptacles, they can be on their own circuit extending throughout the house.

-Jon

If this receptacle is not servibng a counter top and is "switched" it can be on a general lighting circuit

The question becomes, what if this is an unswitched wall or floor receptacle, nowhere near a countertop. Can it also be a 210.70 general purpose outlet (15a)?